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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Hoovs, its a losing cause. DaT "HATES" all Israelis. Those are his own words, posted in this very forum. He feels attacks on Israelis citizens are justified, while any attack on Palestinians whether civilian or militant is to be condemned. He favors swapping 1 soldier for thousands of Palestinian prisoners (which ofcourse will lead to many more soldiers being taken). He has never posted once against a terrorist attack that killed Israeli children, never posted once about the daily barrage of rockets being fired into Israel, never posted once about any attack from Hezbollah, but he would be the first (or maybe second behind Surur) to post negatively about Israeli doing anything to protect itself.

    Hoovs, asking people like this what Israeli should do will never get you anywhere, because they can't see past their own hate. Now if this gets me banned, so be it. I respect that DaT is entitled to his own opininion. I just don't agree with it.
    Okay, I missed this. daT said he "hates" Israelis? Can I hear it from the man himself?
  2. cardio's Avatar
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    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    you don't have to chant Bush lied to undestand what our weapons experts already know: namely that the chemicals in pre-1991 weapons degraded a long time ago and are now no longer a threat. If we do find any evidence of any real chemical weapons manufactured after the gulf war that were an actual threat I would be interested to know, I actually am pretty interested in this subject. I have read the Iraq weapons report from 2004 and I do appreciate reading these posts.

    As far as the question why did we not go into Iraq during the Clinton years when the weapons might have still been active? Well all I can say is the policy of pinning down Sadaam with no fly zones and weapons inspectors really did seem to work. The result was that during the time of this policy, his weapons became useless and he was not able to replace them. So I would say this policy worked.
    Why do they have to be manufactured after the Gulf War? We have chemical munitions on Johnson Atoll that were manufactured in the 50's and 60's that are still lethal. These are being destroyed because the canisters are no longer safe, but the chemical (to include Sarin and forms mustard gas) are still very dangerous. The requirement was to destroy all chemical weapons and to stop manufacturing or acquiring them, he did not destroy, and he continued to acquire the knowledge and materials needed to restart manufacturing.

    The no-fly zones were a joke to him. A simple google search should show anyone interested that the no-fly zones were penetrated on a regular basis, again against the UN resolutions.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Hoovs, its a losing cause. DaT "HATES" all Israelis. Those are his own words, posted in this very forum.
    You'll need to dig that one up.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Hoovs, asking people like this what Israeli should do will never get you anywhere, because they can't see past their own hate. Now if this gets me banned, so be it. I respect that DaT is entitled to his own opininion. I just don't agree with it.
    If you want peace, work for justice.
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    #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    If you want peace, work for justice.
    Careful. Thats the kind of thinking that led us into Iraq.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Why do they have to be manufactured after the Gulf War? We have chemical munitions on Johnson Atoll that were manufactured in the 50's and 60's that are still lethal.
    Cardio, no offense, but I would rather trust the judgement of the chief US weapons inspector in Iraq:

    "...intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitive nature, said the weapons were produced before the 1991 Gulf War and there is no evidence to date of chemical munitions manufactured since then. They said an assessment of the weapons concluded they are so degraded that they couldn't now be used as designed.

    They probably would have been intended for chemical attacks during the Iran-Iraq War, said David Kay, who headed the U.S. weapons-hunting team in Iraq from 2003 until early 2004.

    He said experts on Iraq's chemical weapons are in "almost 100 percent agreement" that sarin nerve agent produced from the 1980s would no longer be dangerous.

    "It is less toxic than most things that Americans have under their kitchen sink at this point," Kay said.

    And any of Iraq's 1980s-era mustard would produce burns, but it is unlikely to be lethal, Kay said."

    http://www.theconservativevoice.com/...l?mi=D8IDIE300
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    Careful. Thats the kind of thinking that led us into Iraq.
    And would lead us to a lot of African conflicts too.
  7. TomUps's Avatar
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    #147  
    You'll need to dig that one up.
    Ok here we go.....

    I asked.....
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    So you hate Israelis. Ok, Im glad we cleared that up.

    and you said
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Yes, all the world is against you. Sigh.

    If you want peace, work for justice.
    Please decipher
  8.    #148  
    The quantification of WMD weapons is on an on topic-ish side tagent.....but could we please start a new thread to continue the Israel / Palestine discussion?

    Thanks.
  9. NRG
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    #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Ok here we go.....

    I asked.....



    and you said




    Please decipher
    didyou not see the sarcasm? I did, I thinkit was the sigh at the end, though I am not too sure.
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    didyou not see the sarcasm? I did, I thinkit was the sigh at the end, though I am not too sure.
    Um yea TomUps. Come on!
  11.    #151  
    NRG....I have already answered these exact same claims in previous posts a couple times. I will copy my answers in below:

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So we should invade any country that has Glass Plus or 409 in a munition? Great forgein policy. We have got alot of work cut out for us, we better get started w/ every household in the US.
    There were two main points about WMDs that were publicly noted to be of great concern.

    1) Concerns that Saddam has reinstated or planning on reinstating Bio & Chem producing programs.

    2) That they had stock piles of bio & chem weapons that we knew they produced long before and are still to this day unaccounted for. This is where these findings noted by cellmatrix become of great value.

    Saddam knew about these weapons as they were specifically noted to him to account for:

    Some experts suggested that the two shells, which were unmarked, date back to the first Persian Gulf War. The mustard gas shell may have been one of 550 projectiles that Saddam failed to account for in his weapons declaration shortly before Operation Iraqi Freedom began. Iraq also failed to account for 450 aerial bombs containing mustard gas.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html
    The points that I get out of this in light of the recent release of several hundred other bio & chem warheads:

    1) We knew Saddam had these weapons.
    2) Saddam knew he had these weapons.
    3) Saddam's regime is caught on tape and in docs admitting and giving instructions on how to actively hide such items from inspectors.
    4) Chem & Bio weapons degrade with time.
    5) Storage of the weapons is key to their long term potency. If stored incorrectly, as we only now know most of these were, they do become very ineffective when compared to their original potential when they were first made. But if stored correctly, they can last several decades.
    6) We had no idea how Saddam was storing these pre-Gulf war weapons that everyone knew he had and was required to account for by several UN resolutions.
    7) UN inspectors reported that these 500 Bio & Chem weapons remained unaccounted for without regard to potency.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    If I am not mistaken, the UN inspectors were trying to do just that. Yet, bush kicked them out before the job was done. Never mind the fact that the UN did not see the need to invade Iraq. Wonder why?
    If you hold Bush accountable for "kicking them out"....do you also hold Saddam responsible for kicking them out in the late 1990's? Do hold Clinton responsible for letting Saddam kicking them out under his admin?

    You claim that the inspections were working. Given the fact of the audio tapes translated and released by ABC News in post #2 and MSNBC in Post #3 , and docs translated by ABC News in Post #13 I would tend to disagree with you with some backing to support my opinion. Here is a summary of one of the sources in the above links:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    The tapes also reveal Iraq's persistent efforts to hide information about weapons of mass destruction programs from U.N. inspectors well into the 1990s. In one pivotal tape-recorded meeting, which occurred in late April or May of 1995, Saddam and his senior aides discuss the fact that U.N. inspectors had uncovered evidence of Iraq's biological weapons program a program whose existence Iraq had previously denied.

    At one point Hussein Kamel, Saddam's son-in-law and the man who was in charge of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction efforts can be heard on the tapes, speaking openly about hiding information from the U.N.

    "We did not reveal all that we have," Kamel says in the meeting. "Not the type of weapons, not the volume of the materials we imported, not the volume of the production we told them about, not the volume of use. None of this was correct."
    Then you look at the last reports that Blixt filed and it appears to confirm what Hussein Kamel said to conintue to hold true. You can see them in detail HERE, but here are a couple of the highlights:

    December 19, 2002
    In preparing its declaration, Iraq had a list of outstanding questions prepared by the former U.N. inspection agency and by an international panel of experts. Inspectors left Baghdad in December 1998 and Iraq barred them from returning until last month.

    The unanswered questions included:
    • How much anthrax did Iraq actually produce, and was it all destroyed as Baghdad claims?
    • Where are 550 artillery shells that it filled with mustard gas?
    • Why were no remnants found of warheads for 50 long-range missiles that Iraq said it destroyed?
    • What happened to all the deadly VX nerve agent that Iraq produced.
    The report by former chief inspector Richard Butler listed biological agents Iraq produced including deadly botulinum toxin, anthrax and ricin; gangrene gas, which rots flesh; and aflatoxin, which causes liver cancer. Baghdad also said it did research on rotavirus, which causes diarrhea; and hemorrhage conjunctivitis virus, which affects the eyes.
    Friday, 10 January 2003 Blixt Briefing Notes To UN Security Council
    A list was submitted to us before the end of last year as requested. It consisted of 117 persons for the chemical sector, 120 for the biological sector and 156 persons for the missile sector. This is an inadequate response. The lists do not even comprise all those who have been previously listed in Iraq's Full, Final and Complete Declarations, besides the numerous Iraqi personnel that are known from UNSCOM interviews and found in Iraqi documents, to have participated in past weapons programmes.

    We do not feel that the Iraqi side has made a serious effort to respond to the request we made.
    February 24, 2003
    Associated Press. Top U.N. inspectors Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei say Iraq still isn't fully cooperating or providing evidence to answer outstanding questions about its nuclear, chemical, biological and long-range missile programs.
    July 06, 2003 Blix states in several interviews that Iraq still has not answered the answers so we could have confirmed or denied Saddam's claims and/or lies.

    August 1, 2003
    former President Bill Clinton.

    "When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for . . . it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks . . . " said Clinton recently on "Larry King Live." Also, Clinton said he never found out whether a U.S.-British bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended Saddam's stockpiles of or his capability of producing chemical and biological weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might have gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know," said Clinton.
    I can appreciate the argument that we should have let inspections continue (though I personally don't agree with it)....but after 12 years of continual noncompliance of at least 18 UN resolutions. Documented proof pointing to the fact that Saddam was actively hiding weapons and information from UN inspectors. Continual reports from inspectors that Iraq was not cooperating. I am seriously interested in how long do you feel the inspections should have continued to verify Saddam stopped playing games with the UN and all weapons still outstanding would have been confirmed? How much longer until you felt comfortable that Saddam was not going to comply?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/12/2006 at 01:36 PM.
  12. TomUps's Avatar
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    #152  
    didyou not see the sarcasm? I did, I thinkit was the sigh at the end, though I am not too sure
    Read the original thread, its called "Israel", and you will see he was not kidding as he mentioned it a couple of times. He claimed that since Israelis elected their government, they were all responsible for the governments actions and therefore he hates them. Ofcourse, the Palestinians just elected Hamas, a world recognized terrorist organization. I'm sure he would never claim to hate all Palestinians though.

    I think its important to this thread to show where people like DaT are coming from when the dismiss Saddams payments to terrorists.
  13.    #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    If we do find any evidence of any real chemical weapons manufactured after the gulf war that were an actual threat I would be interested to know, I actually am pretty interested in this subject. I have read the Iraq weapons report from 2004 and I do appreciate reading these posts.
    Then I think this recently released document I posted in post #54 may prove of interest:
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    In a summary of a larger document, the translators found that Iraq had restarted its processing of castor-bean extraction, from which ricin can be developed that UNMOVIC discovered in December 2002.

    From CMPC-2003-003766-HT.pdf:

    Ricin toxin is found in the bean of the castor plant. UNMOVIC inspections since December 2002 have verified that the bombed caster oil extraction plant at Fallujah III has been reconstructed on a larger scale.

    Undeclared BW agents, there are a number of microorganisms and toxins that have been developed as BW agents by several countries, including Bacillus anthracis (anthrax), Clostridium bottalinum toxin, Yersinia pestis (plague), Francisella tularensis (tularemia), Brucella species (Brucellosis) Coxiella burnetti (Q fever) and Variola major (smallpox). Drying of BW Agents, BW agents are produced by a process that usually results in a liquid product, for example bacteria in an aqueous suspension, or toxins in an aquesous or organic solution.

    Bacterial BW agent production, this requires certain equipment, typically a fomenter and down stream processing equipment such as separators and settling tanks. Also required for the production of bacterial BW agents are nutrients that are dissolved in water and added to the fermenter. The lack of supporting documentation makes it difficult for UNMOVIC to confirm Iraq's figures on the quantities of bacterial BW agent produced.

    Genetic Engineering and Viral Research. Genetic Engineering, a process whereby an organism's genetic material is modified, has many medical and industrial applications. BW Agent Stimulants are chemicals or microorganisms that have very similar characteristics and properties to a biological warfare agent.

    UNMOVIC inspections and Iraqi declarations confirm that Iraq continues working with organisms that could be used as BW agent stimulates. The documents display after each section the actions that Iraq could take to help in resolving the issue and convincing the UN inspection teams that the activity have stopped or were fruitless and so on.
    Please note the link to the direct document and not to a 3rd party source, i.e. CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, etc....



    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Cardio, no offense, but I would rather trust the judgement of the chief US weapons inspector in Iraq:
    Here is my view on the last time you made this similar point in post #55:
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I don't doubt that the official statement is such at the this time as I have stated over and over and over again, non of the currently released documents are conclusive....but that they are still coming out. When viewed collectively they are at the moment only a point of interest.
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Read the original thread, its called "Israel", and you will see he was not kidding as he mentioned it a couple of times. He claimed that since Israelis elected their government, they were all responsible for the governments actions and therefore he hates them. Ofcourse, the Palestinians just elected Hamas, a world recognized terrorist organization. I'm sure he would never claim to hate all Palestinians though.

    I think its important to this thread to show where people like DaT are coming from when the dismiss Saddams payments to terrorists.
    Yea, it's not that I despise the attempt to distort the truth to justify the invasion of Iraq, it's that I'm a card carrying Chomsky-ite!
  15. cardio's Avatar
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    #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Cardio, no offense, but I would rather trust the judgement of the chief US weapons inspector in Iraq:

    "...intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitive nature, said the weapons were produced before the 1991 Gulf War and there is no evidence to date of chemical munitions manufactured since then. They said an assessment of the weapons concluded they are so degraded that they couldn't now be used as designed.

    They probably would have been intended for chemical attacks during the Iran-Iraq War, said David Kay, who headed the U.S. weapons-hunting team in Iraq from 2003 until early 2004.

    He said experts on Iraq's chemical weapons are in "almost 100 percent agreement" that sarin nerve agent produced from the 1980s would no longer be dangerous.

    "It is less toxic than most things that Americans have under their kitchen sink at this point," Kay said.

    And any of Iraq's 1980s-era mustard would produce burns, but it is unlikely to be lethal, Kay said."

    http://www.theconservativevoice.com/...l?mi=D8IDIE300
    I am not trying to indicate that the weapons were or were not lethal when they were discovered. You seem to be stuck on that point, the simple fact of the matter is the UN required them all to be destroyed, they were not destroyed, they were not accounted for, the UN did not inspect them after 10 years of searching. Either the UN are complete idiots or the Iraqi reqime were succesfull in hiding them.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I am not trying to indicate that the weapons were or were not lethal when they were discovered.
    Well your comments about sarin stored on Johnson Island and other things sure seemed to indicate that to me. Anyway, no problem, I accept what you are saying to me now.
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    You seem to be stuck on that point, the simple fact of the matter is the UN required them all to be destroyed, they were not destroyed, they were not accounted for, the UN did not inspect them after 10 years of searching. Either the UN are complete idiots or the Iraqi reqime were succesfull in hiding them.
    I am not stuck on the point. Rather I am examining the practical utility of the UN approach along with the Clinton administration versus the Bush approach of invasion. Which one was more beneficial when it came to the WMD problem?

    Lets look at the facts, as best we have them. Presently, we have an Iraq which is free from dangerous chemical weapons. How did that take place? Because we invaded them?

    No, at the beginning of the Clinton administration, Iraq did have dangerous weapons, but during the inspections, sanctions and punitive measures short of invasion that the Clinton administration and the UN employed, the dangerous chemicals that were a threat to the world degraded and Sadaam was not able to produce new ones. Now the world is safer because of that. So really what I am saying is that it is not frustrating, but rather good that we can't find weapons so far.

    Its a better world because of that. But again I do not credit the invasion of Iraq for it, I credit the policies promoted by the UN and Clinton.
  17. cardio's Avatar
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    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Well your comments about sarin stored on Johnson Island and other things sure seemed to indicate that to me. Anyway, no problem, I accept what you are saying to me now.


    I am not stuck on the point. Rather I am examining the practical utility of the UN approach along with the Clinton administration versus the Bush approach of invasion. Which one was more beneficial when it came to the WMD problem?

    Lets look at the facts, as best we have them. Presently, we have an Iraq which is free from dangerous chemical weapons. How did that take place? Because we invaded them?

    No, at the beginning of the Clinton administration, Iraq did have dangerous weapons, but during the inspections, sanctions and punitive measures short of invasion that the Clinton administration and the UN employed, the dangerous chemicals that were a threat to the world degraded and Sadaam was not able to produce new ones. Now the world is safer because of that. So really what I am saying is that it is not frustrating, but rather good that we can't find weapons so far.

    Its a better world because of that. But again I do not credit the invasion of Iraq for it, I credit the policies promoted by the UN and Clinton.
    Fair enough it is your credit, you can give it to whoever you want. I just find it hard to believe that with the documents that are being translated and released almost on a daily basis now you still hold to the belief that Saddam was not continuing to reinstitute his chemical and biological manufacturing plants right under Clinton and the UN noses. We are still finding munitions that were to be destroyed over 10 years ago, the world pretty much knew he had them, knew he was hiding them, they did not know the condition of the munition nor the condition of the storage site.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Fair enough it is your credit, you can give it to whoever you want. I just find it hard to believe that with the documents that are being translated and released almost on a daily basis now you still hold to the belief that Saddam was not continuing to reinstitute his chemical and biological manufacturing plants right under Clinton and the UN noses. We are still finding munitions that were to be destroyed over 10 years ago, the world pretty much knew he had them, knew he was hiding them, they did not know the condition of the munition nor the condition of the storage site.
    Of corse he "knows it" because hobbes told him.

    Which I suspect is the reason for hobbes postong his daily "newly uncovered bombshell revelations" here.
  19.    #159  
    Here is another article following up on the article posted in Post #131:

    Iraq Pre-War Intel Being Ignored, Says Top Republican

    The Republican chairman of the U.S. House committee with jurisdiction over foreign intelligence, conceded Tuesday that the many documents discovered by the U.S. military in Iraq following the toppling of Saddam Hussein's regime are no longer a priority for most intelligence experts.

    Those documents....included memos containing the letterhead of the Iraqi Intelligence Service and revealing Saddam's purchase of mustard gas and anthrax - both considered weapons of mass destruction - as recently as the summer of 2000 and his extensive ties to al Qaeda.

    "I believe there is still a tremendous amount of stuff on pre-war Iraq that we do not know and that we do not understand," said U.S. Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.), chairman of the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

    Hoekstra said many intelligence experts consider the information irrelevant. "Everything that I'm working on within the intelligence community on pre-war Iraq and better understanding pre-war Iraq, tells me it is no longer a priority for the intelligence community," he said.

    --------------------

    In February Hoekstra's committee began examining 48,000 boxes of Iraqi documents that had not yet been translated or catalogued. The search reveals that "Saddam Hussein was not only trying to hide his illegal weapons program from the world, but was also interested in aiding international terrorists," Hoekstra said Tuesday.

    "Information collected after Saddam's fall indicates that he may have been looking to build a terror network to take down America and our allies," he added. "One document in particular is an Iraqi Intelligence Service memo discussing a period from 1994 to 1997 when the Iraqi intelligence official made repeated attempts to build a relationship with Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda."

    .....Oct. 4, 2004, cited 42 pages of Iraqi Intelligence Service memos detailing the numerous relationships that Saddam's regime had cultivated with the world's most notorious terrorist groups, including al Qaeda.

    On Tuesday, Hoekstra said he was realistic about any future revelations from the Iraqi documents. "I recognize the limitations of what we may find in these documents," he said. "I believe that the really good stuff -- that would have given us the most information -- has probably been destroyed."

    He noted that Saddam's regime had a policy of destroying documents. "There was a standing order to destroy documents relating to special weapons since 1992," Hoekstra said.


    FULL STORY
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Fair enough it is your credit, you can give it to whoever you want. I just find it hard to believe that with the documents that are being translated and released almost on a daily basis now you still hold to the belief that Saddam was not continuing to reinstitute his chemical and biological manufacturing plants right under Clinton and the UN noses. We are still finding munitions that were to be destroyed over 10 years ago, the world pretty much knew he had them, knew he was hiding them, they did not know the condition of the munition nor the condition of the storage site.
    As far as documentation, US intelligence as of last month believes that there was no organized effort by Sadaam to preserve these weapons.

    "Intelligence officials said the munitions were found in ones, twos and maybe slightly larger collections over the past couple of years. One official conceded that these pre-Gulf War weapons did not pose a threat to the U.S. military before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. They were not maintained or part of any organized program run by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. There is no evidence that insurgents have found the chemical munitions."
    http://www.theconservativevoice.com/...l?mi=D8IDIE300

    This makes sense - why would Sadaam expend effort to stockpile stuff that already went bad?
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