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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Why is it Blaze when you post a news story we are suppose to believe it as fact, when somebody else does, and that story just happen to differ from your political views, you must attack and claim these stories are lies?
    Your over simplification is silly Samkim.
  2.    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    You are accusing me of ignoring facts, but at the same time you have not watched the PBS documentary that are not reports from news outlets, left or right, but rather the PRINCIPLES talking about what they found, in their own words, coming from their OWN mouths.
    Let's see....I never claimed I did not watch the doc, you made that claim about my own actions. I have not been able to watch it all, but have watched a majority of it. I do not take that as the only biblical source in the issue. You seem to have ignored the fact that I just said:
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I do not doubt for a minute there was manipulation from the Admin in building up the war
    I also know that many of the claims were not new when Bush made them. Nor was the Bush admin the only ones (both domestically and internationally) making them at the time. My stance has been consistent. We hold all who made the same or similar claims equally accountable (UN, France, Italy, Russia, Isreal, etc...). We work newly found evidence into the equation, no matter what side of the issue it falls on.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/06/2006 at 02:00 PM.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Let's see....I never claimed I did not watch the doc, you made that claim about my own actions. I have not been able to watch it all, but have watched a majority of it. I do not take that as the only biblical source in the issue. You seem to have ignored the fact that I just said: "I do not doubt for a minute there was manipulation from the Admin in building up the war".

    I also know that many of the claims were not new when Bush made them. Nor was the Bush admin the only ones (both domestically and internationally) making them at the time. My stance has been consistent. We hold all who made the same or similar claims equally accountable (UN, France, Italy, Russia, Isreal, etc...). We work newly found evidence into the equation, no matter what side of the issue it falls on.
    Many leaders in congress (while i CERTAINLY do not defend any of them for one minute), and many leaders around the world "knew" of all this, and made the claims about WMD, and Iraqs connections to AQ because the heard it from the Vice President of the United States. Just look back at the statments he was making.

    By the way. I am buying the DVD of the documentary. PM me if anyone is interested.
  4.    #44  
    Blaze, I was referring to the independent internationally intelligence agencies reporting similar intel.....independentle from the CIA. The Bush Lied thread that was closed has many references to specific examples of Russia, Israel, Italy, and even France's intel agencies filing similar reports...again with no connection to our CIA. Many of the differences at the time, was not differing intel, but what to do about what was being reported.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Blaze, I was referring to the independent internationally intelligence agencies reporting similar intel.....independentle from the CIA. The Bush Lied thread that was closed has many references to specific examples of Russia, Israel, Italy, and even France's intel agencies filing similar reports...again with no connection to our CIA.
    I saw with my own eyes, the highest possible level CIA agents claiming that they went over every single claim given to them by independent internationally intelligence agencies with a fine tooth comb several times, and all of it was not credible. Many of the agencies, including some that gave intel that ended up in the NIB, even passed on a disclaimer with it similar to "we think this is horse **** but here you go".

    The Vice President is said to have lobbied to have it put in anyway.

    Every single piece of it later turned out to be false.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I saw with my own eyes, the highest possible level CIA agents claiming that they went over every single claim given to them by independent internationally intelligence agencies with a fine tooth comb several times, and all of it was not credible. Many of the agencies, including some that gave intel that ended up in the NIB, even passed on a disclaimer with it similar to "we think this is horse **** but here you go".

    The Vice President is said to have lobbied to have it put in anyway.

    Every single piece of it later turned out to be false.

    I gotta ditto that. There was no solid intel and the intelligence community knew it. But this admin was so in denial they were blinded to it.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I gotta ditto that. There was no solid intel and the intelligence community knew it. But this admin was so in denial they were blinded to it.
    More than that, there apparently was a concerted effort on the part of the office of the Vice President to manufacture their own intel.

    Also, Tenet deserves his share of the blame. Presidential medal of freedom aside.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    More than that, there apparently was a concerted effort on the part of the office of the Vice President to manufacture their own intel.
    And that's why they began to ignore the CIA and focus on Defense Intelligence agencies and diverted funding there. Still, no solid intel to support their assertions.
  9. #49  
    Apparently, "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to Republican administration officials either.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    And that's why they began to ignore the CIA and focus on Defense Intelligence agencies and diverted funding there. Still, no solid intel to support their assertions.
    Not only focus on "Defence Intelligence agencies", but CREATED it. A whole new intelegince gathering mechanism inside the military that reports to the vice president. This has never happened before.
  11.    #51  
    Coalition 'lied to US Senate'
    08jul06
    NEWLY released documents showed the Australian Government had colluded with AWB and deliberately lied to the US Senate to hide the grain trader's kickbacks to Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, the ALP said today.

    Labor's public accountability spokesman Kelvin Thomson said documents obtained by his office through Freedom of Information showed the Howard Government had assisted AWB in dodging questions from the US Senate about $300 million in kickbacks paid by AWB to the government of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein.

    The US Senate was investigating corruption in the United Nation's oil-for-food program and the AWB was the biggest single supplier of humanitarian goods to Iraq through this program.

    --------------

    “There is no doubt that the Howard Government lied to the US Senate.

    “We looked the US straight in the eye and denied kickbacks were being paid.

    -------------

    “The bribing of foreign officials is an offence under Australian law, so you can't say it's OK to bribe foreign officials...in the interests of Australia's wheat trade,” Mr Thomson said.

    “Furthermore we were signed up to UN sanctions and these bribes were in express breach of the UN sanctions.”

    FULL STORY
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Not only focus on "Defence Intelligence agencies", but CREATED it. A whole new intelegince gathering mechanism inside the military that reports to the vice president. This has never happened before.
    True that.
  13.    #53  
    Iraq's WMD Documents and Terror Threats In June 2006
    Ryan Mauro - 7/6/2006
    Documents found in Iraq released by the Pentagon continue to be translated by Arabic volunteers on the Internet. Among the findings are:

    1) A September 15, 2002 memo from a Fedayeen General to Uday Hussein discussing the location of a hidden, buried container of chemicals in Fallujah originally concealed there by Hussein Kamel.

    2) Ray Robison, a former Iraq Survey Group employee, reviewed documents that indicate that, in 1999, a meeting occurred between Taha Yasin Ramadan, the vice president of Iraq, and Fazlur Rahman, a Pakistani cleric close to Mullah Omar. During the meeting, Ramadan states he agrees with Osama Bin Laden’s call for war against America. Rahman delivers a message from Mullah Omar requesting that Iraq serve as the intermediary to Russia. The meeting also discusses Iraqi contact with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the leader of a faction in Afghanistan that later allied with Al-Qaeda. Iraq appeared to be acting as an intermediary between the Taliban and Hekmatyar. (Added Comment: This is cited in detail in posts above.)

    3) A document from 1999 indicates that the Iraqis were hiding a “neutron source device” that was banned by the UN.

    4) Documents from 2000 and 2002 indicate that Iraq had finalized plans to produce the precursor chemicals used to make sarin and tabun. This was an operation that is banned by the UN.

    5) Frank Gaffney testified to the House Armed Services Committee at the end of June. He mentioned a point that I’ve noted before, but I feel it needs to be reiterated repeatedly. The reports of the Iraq Survey Group found that the Iraqi regime had plans to place sulfur mustard and sarin in “perfume sprayers and medicine bottles which they would ship to the United States and Europe.”

    FULL STORY
    He does not source specifically which docs or source of analysis of the docs, but thought it might be interesting to be aware of the claims to see if anyone else has seen any confirmed sources about his claims.
  14.    #54  
    In a summary of a larger document, the translators found that Iraq had restarted its processing of castor-bean extraction, from which ricin can be developed that UNMOVIC discovered in December 2002.

    From CMPC-2003-003766-HT.pdf:

    Ricin toxin is found in the bean of the castor plant. UNMOVIC inspections since December 2002 have verified that the bombed caster oil extraction plant at Fallujah III has been reconstructed on a larger scale.

    Undeclared BW agents, there are a number of microorganisms and toxins that have been developed as BW agents by several countries, including Bacillus anthracis (anthrax), Clostridium bottalinum toxin, Yersinia pestis (plague), Francisella tularensis (tularemia), Brucella species (Brucellosis) Coxiella burnetti (Q fever) and Variola major (smallpox). Drying of BW Agents, BW agents are produced by a process that usually results in a liquid product, for example bacteria in an aqueous suspension, or toxins in an aquesous or organic solution.

    Bacterial BW agent production, this requires certain equipment, typically a fomenter and down stream processing equipment such as separators and settling tanks. Also required for the production of bacterial BW agents are nutrients that are dissolved in water and added to the fermenter. The lack of supporting documentation makes it difficult for UNMOVIC to confirm Iraq's figures on the quantities of bacterial BW agent produced.

    Genetic Engineering and Viral Research. Genetic Engineering, a process whereby an organism's genetic material is modified, has many medical and industrial applications. BW Agent Stimulants are chemicals or microorganisms that have very similar characteristics and properties to a biological warfare agent.

    UNMOVIC inspections and Iraqi declarations confirm that Iraq continues working with organisms that could be used as BW agent stimulates. The documents display after each section the actions that Iraq could take to help in resolving the issue and convincing the UN inspection teams that the activity have stopped or were fruitless and so on.
  15. #55  
    Just to add to the knowledge base here:

    NBC News and news services Updated: 7:04 p.m. PT June 22, 2006
    Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday they have no evidence that Iraq produced chemical weapons after the 1991 Gulf War, despite recent reports from media outlets and Republican lawmakers.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13480264/
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Just to add to the knowledge base here:

    NBC News and news services Updated: 7:04 p.m. PT June 22, 2006
    Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday they have no evidence that Iraq produced chemical weapons after the 1991 Gulf War, despite recent reports from media outlets and Republican lawmakers.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13480264/
    PULEEEZZZ!!! Do not try to muddy the waters here with plain facts!

  17. cardio's Avatar
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    PULEEEZZZ!!! Do not try to muddy the waters here with plain facts!

    Yeah, d@mnit those pre 1991 weapons that were to be destroyed under the UN sanctions really don't count as a violation of the UN. They really should not be considered WMD since they were hidden, uhh I mean misplaced, by the Iraqi regime instead of being moved out, uhhh I mean destroyed as required by the UN.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  18.    #58  
    If you are interested in direct access to many of these docs (some have been translated and posted in English while most of the others may show only the title or summary as they have yet to be translated and released), then you can read them here with out any dispute about the source, i.e. Fox News, that reports on them.

    http://70.168.46.200/recentPosted.aspx
    http://70.168.46.200/allFiles.aspx

    • Title: An order from Saddam Hussein to present $25,000 for the suicide bomber families in Palestine
    • Title: Article about CBS broadcast on AQ trying to manufacture a nuclear bomb
    • Title: Abu-Zubaydah Statement on the Capability of al-Qaidah to Manufacture and Deliver Nuclear Weapons to the U.S.
    • Title: A handwritten report within the IIS regarding information taken from the internet about the work of some Iraqi factories, such as the production of explosives, chemical products, and chemical research
    • Title: LETTER FROM SADDAM TO PUTIN
    • Title: Correspondence between various Iraqi organizations giving instructions to hide chemicals and equipment
    • Title: Biological tests, excluding items imported to meet UN regulation, dule usage etc.
    • Title: INTERNAL LETTERS WRITTEN WITHIN THE IIS IN REGARDS TO SOME CHEMICAL SUBSTANCE, ALSO QUESTIONS ABOUT THE NEW IRANIAN INTELLIGENCE STRUCTURE
    • Correspondence, dated 2001, within the General Military Intelligence Directorate (GMID), regarding information taken from several radio stations concerning several issues such conflicts, attacks, military training and the use of chemical weapons
    • Financial Forms, Administrative Orders and Correspondence Related to the Chemical Engineering Designs Directorate
    • Title: Memos dated 1992 to 1994 belonging to the Chemical Industries Department of the Military Industrialization Commission regarding Babil Project for producing Magnesium Oxide
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/10/2006 at 07:30 PM.
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Just to add to the knowledge base here:

    NBC News and news services Updated: 7:04 p.m. PT June 22, 2006
    Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday they have no evidence that Iraq produced chemical weapons after the 1991 Gulf War, despite recent reports from media outlets and Republican lawmakers.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13480264/
    I don't doubt that the official statement is such at the this time as I have stated over and over and over again, non of the currently released documents are conclusive....but that they are still coming out. When viewed collectively they are at the moment only a point of interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    PULEEEZZZ!!! Do not try to muddy the waters here with plain facts!

    I know the facts are sometimes hard to accept.....But if we take your point at face value there were two main points about WMDs that were publicly noted to be of great concern.

    1) Concerns that Saddam has reinstated or planning on reinstating Bio & Chem producing programs.

    2) That they had stock piles of bio & chem weapons that we knew they produced long before and are still to this day unaccounted for. This is where these findings noted by cellmatrix become of great value.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Yeah, d@mnit those pre 1991 weapons that were to be destroyed under the UN sanctions really don't count as a violation of the UN. They really should not be considered WMD since they were hidden, uhh I mean misplaced, by the Iraqi regime instead of being moved out, uhhh I mean destroyed as required by the UN.
    Right. The mustard gas hidden near the Iraq / Iran border so long it may not have been operational, that the Iraqi regime knew of, but decided not to use to defend the very existance of the regime itself. Makes sense.
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