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  1.    #21  
    Here is the latest actual and very interesting result from publishing the document in post #7: Terror Links to Saddam's Inner Circle

    In researching this article a version of the translation was originally posted at Ray Robison's personal Web site on the morning of March, 28, 2006. According to the Italian news Web site adnki.com ( http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_En...81672122&par=0), on the night of March 28, 2006, a few hours after the translation was posted, Fazlur Rahman Khalil was kidnapped, beaten and left for dead near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. Commentators on this incident indicate that Khalil had a security detail and only a high level and trusted source could have had access to him.

    SOURCE
  2. NRG
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    #22  
    I am too worried to reply. Hobbes, why don't you bring this to Munk's forum?
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I am too worried to reply. Hobbes, why don't you bring this to Munk's forum?
    I'll comment.

    How nice of Fox news to keep all the shocking yet unknown fair and balanced revelations about Saddam's "links to terrorism" all in one convenient place. It really makes Hobbes job so much easier.

    That and the fact that this administration apparently has more agents franticly pouring over ever scrap of paper in Iraq looking after the fact to justify this war, than they have looking for Osama.
  4. #24  
    ^^^ appears to be flame. I'm offended for Hobbes.
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I'll comment.

    How nice of Fox news to keep all the shocking yet unknown fair and balanced revelations about Saddam's "links to terrorism" all in one convenient place. It really makes Hobbes job so much easier.
    Sources is a good question. But considering that the sources I linked to above include all the following:
    • Operation Iraqi Freedom Document Portal
    • ABC News
    • MSNBC
    • Fox News
    • New York Sun
    • Salt Lake City Tribune
    • Foreign Military Studies Office Joint Reserve Intelligence Center
    • Investors.com
    • UK Guardian
    • West Point's Combating Terrorism Center
    • Weekly Standard
    • andkronos International
    • UK Telegraph
    • MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base

    It can be challenging to brush it away saying it is just Fox News.


    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    That and the fact that this administration apparently has more agents franticly pouring over ever scrap of paper in Iraq looking after the fact to justify this war, than they have looking for Osama.
    You will notice that nearly all of the translated documents released and analyzed above were not translated by the Admin, but by public or 3rd party organizations. The admin has stated they are leaving this to others to do.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 06/20/2006 at 08:13 PM.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Sources is a good question. But considering that the sources I linked to above include all the following:
    • Operation Iraqi Freedom Document Portal
    • ABC News
    • MSNBC
    • Fox News
    • New York Sun
    • Salt Lake City Tribune
    • Investors.com
    • UK Guardian
    • West Point's Combating Terrorism Center
    • Weekly Standard
    • UK Telegraph

    It can be challenging to brush it away saying it is just Fox News.
    What I said was it was nice of Fox news to put them all in one fair and balanced web site for you. Yes I know that many of them are mirrored on other sites as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by hobbes
    You will notice that nearly all of the translated documents released and analyzed above were not translated by the Admin, but by public or 3rd party organizations. The admin has stated they are leaving this to others to do.
    Yes, I am sure the admin has made statments about how they really are not interested, and that they are just going to leave justifying this war to others, but lol, even you can't believe that.
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    What I said was it was nice of Fox news to put them all in one fair and balanced web site for you. Yes I know that many of them are mirrored on other sites as well.Yes, I am sure the admin has made statments about how they really are not interested, and that they are just going to leave justifying this war to others, but lol, even you can't believe that.
    If you click on the links I provided you will notice that most of it is not mirrored information duplicated over several sites. They are all different sources reporting on different aspects of the newly related documents. Fox News is taking an active part in reporting about it, which I agree does it make it a good source for information...but only a single source. As they do not include any of the information reported by ABC, MSNBC, Weekly Standard, Investors.com, etc.... If we only looked at what Fox News has archived at the moment we would miss the first 6 months of translated documents and several hours of translated audio tapes.

    I have no doubt that the admin is VERY interested in what is found. Any admin would be. Which is why I am surprised they are NOT taking an active role in translating these docs and tape. What I meant by my statement above is that they are not taking an active part in translating and releasing the translations of these docs. That may or may not last, but so far that has proven to remain true for the past 6 months of released documents and translated audio tapes.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/19/2006 at 05:04 PM.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I have no doubt that the admin is VERY interested in what is found. Any admin would be. Which why I am surprised they are not taking an active role in translating these docs and tape. What I meant by my statement above is that they are not taking an active part in translating and releasing the translations of these docs. That may or may not last, but so far that has proven to remain true for the past 6 months of released documents and translated audio tapes.
    Lol,

    Ok, I am not inside the administration, but there is no way I can believe that is true.

    I can't remember the quote, but I was watching Chris Matthews last week, and one of the panel was talking about how shamefull it was that this administration had more agents working on justifying the war than they did looking for Osama, and he gave numbers.
  9. #29  
    Watch this Hobbes.

    "After 9/11, Vice President Richard Cheney seized the initiative. He pushed to expand executive power, transform America's intelligence agencies and bring the war on terror to Iraq. But first he had to take on George Tenet's CIA for control over intelligence."

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/

    I watched one hour of it last night.
  10.    #30  
    Was Saddam Regime a Broker for Terror Alliances?

    Prologue:

    Newly declassified documents captured by U.S. forces indicate that Saddam Hussein's inner circle not only actively reached out to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan and terror-based jihadists in the region, but also hosted discussions with a known Al Qaeda operative about creating jihad training "centers," possibly in Baghdad.

    Ray Robison, a former member of the CIA-directed Iraq Survey Group (ISG), supervised a group of linguists to analyze, archive and exploit the hundreds of captured documents and materials of Saddam's regime.

    --------------

    The relationship between the Taliban and Saddam appears to have been mediated by a Pakistani named Maulana Fazlur Rahman. Another document captured in Afghanistan and written by an Al Qaeda operative confirms the relationship between the Maulana and Saddam. The translation provided here includes an early 1999 meeting between the director of the IIS and the Maulana.

    Another notebook entry records a meeting with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghani Islamic Jihadist and leader of the Islamic Party in Afghanistan. Hekmatyar made news recently with the BBC article Afghan Rebel’s pledge to al-Qaeda that reports on a video statement from Hekmatyar in which he states he will fight alongside A Qaeda. In this translation, Hekmatyar makes specific requests for a “center” in Baghdad and/or Tajikistan.

    -----------------------

    Translation:

    “Iran helped us at the beginning and we brought 2,000 fighters but things changed at the time being. Also the Russians called to help but we do not trust them. Moscow and Iran want the war to drag on.” (RR: this is probably the Taliban vs. Northern Alliance conflict). This is why he is coming to Baghdad for help. Asked Baghdad to help open a center in Tajikistan or in Baghdad and they will bring them (translator’s note: not clear what them refers to) in through Iran or Northern Iraq.

    ---------------

    He (6951) proposed to the Taliban to form a front with Iraq, Libya and Sudan...........

    They openly claim that they are against America.

    He said that he was ready to build relations between the Taliban and Iraq.

    (translator’s note: meeting continues on both sides of page 68/76, with questions about Pakistani politics and the other Islamic parties.) The Iraqi official says, “I suggest that the parties come closer together because that means power to Islam against the American and Zionist policies”.
    --------------

    He visited Iraq on the beginning of April 1999 and the ex-director of the intelligence, may God rest his soul, instructed him to mediate between the Taliban and the leader of the Afghani Islamic party, Hekmatyar following the request for mediation done by Hekmatyar to the leadership of Iraq during a visit when they met us on 3/19/1999.


    --------------

    Analysis:

    It looks very much like Hekmatyar, a long-time jihad leader and recently self-identified Al Qaeda associate, is asking the Saddam regime for a jihad training camp in Tajikistan and/or Baghdad. ( http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terror_96/asia.html )

    Page 27 tells us that the Maulana Fazlur Rahman was meeting with the IIS Director in early April. The meeting on page 69 fits the time frame, has the code for the IIS director, and the guest speaks for the Taliban indicating that “6951” is the Maulana. According to these notes, the Maulana “proposed to the Taliban to form a front with Iraq, Libya and Sudan.” He also enquires about the IIS relationship to Usama bin Laden.

    In researching the Maulana, a third document has been found that demonstrated the relationship between Saddam and the Maulana. The document which appears to be an IIS memo also mentions a relationship with Hekmatyar. There is no government authentication of the document. Because this document matches closely with what we find in the IIS agent notebook we will reference it so that the reader may decide.

    The CNS report includes a translation of a memo from the IIS to Saddam. The memo is dated January 25, 1993. The subject is IIS influence with two groups: the JUI, led by Maulana Fazlur Rahman; and, the Afghani Islamic Party led by Hekmatyar. These are the same two men meeting with the IIS in Baghdad in 1999, according to the notebook.

    The document states that the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI) depended upon Pakistani support as well as foreign help from Iraq and Libya. It also mentions that the secretary general of the JUI has had a good relationship with the IIS since 1981, and that he is “ready for any mission”.

    The IIS document reported on by CNS News ( http://www.cnsnews.com/specialreports/2004/iraq1.asp )also states that the Islamic Party of Hekmatyar relies on Iraqi funding. It says the relationship has existed since 1989 and has improved under Hekmatyar’s leadership. Although this document has not yet been validated by the U.S, government, we can see very specific information, not publicly available before 2004, that matches what we find in the IIS notebook. It indicates a long history of Saddam regime support to Islamic jihad groups, and that the IIS considers them organizations that will take on missions for Iraq’s interests.


    Epilogue:

    Let’s review what we have learned from the IIS notebook.

    • We learned that in 1999 the IIS met with three significant leaders of Islamic jhad from Afghanistan: a warlord and Islamic jihadist; an Al Qaeda leader; and, a man known as the “Father of the Taliban.”

    • The Saddam regime and Taliban leadership agreed to diplomatic ties and a secret intelligence service relationship. They discussed security cooperation with Hekmatyar’s Islamic Jihad group. The Taliban representative also agreed to support the Saddam regime in Pakistan’s North-West Frontier, a region sympathetic to and actively involved with the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and the world-wide Islamic jihad movement. An Islamist, most likely the Al Qaeda and Taliban affiliated Fazlur Rahman Khalil, promised the support of Bangladesh.

    • We see a request to the Saddam regime for a training center in Baghdad or Tajikistan from a jihad leader accused by the U.S. State Department during the Clinton Administration of running Islamic extremist training camps.

    • There is a discussion about transporting something into these centers, including a discussion that appears to mention surface-to-air missiles.

    • And, we have numerous statements of Islamic fidelity between Afghani jihad leaders and the Saddam regime, with many statements of mutual animosity towards the United States and intent to cooperate.

    Full Story HERE
  11.    #31  
    Iraq How-to Manual Directed Arab Military Operatives In Afghanistan

    An Arab regime, possibly Iraq, supplied how-to manuals for Arab operatives working throughout Afghanistan before 9/11, and provided military assistance to the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

    That's the most likely conclusion drawn from an apparent training manual unearthed in captured Iraqi government computer files translated and analyzed exclusively for Fox News, and made public for the first time.

    The document, apparently written before the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, could bolster the Bush administration's contention that Saddam Hussein was providing support for Islamic extremists who were plotting against America.

    ----------------

    While the training manual revealed today by Fox News does not mention the IIS agent's notebook, the manual does suggest an Arab regime, most likely Saddam, may have provided the military help requested by the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

    The manual, declassified and recently released by the Foreign Military Studies Office, advises its Arab readers never to show your "military ID." That strongly suggests that Iraq was sending professional military assistance to Afghanistan before the 9/11 attacks

    ------------------------

    Analysis:

    This document supports a few strong conclusions. It clearly proves that an Arab country was providing professional military assistance to Arab operatives in Afghanistan. While the document does not identify the country of origin of these Arab men, it's a logical omission since it wouldn't make sense to name the country in a memo whose purpose is to instruct how to hide one's nationality.

    It is important to note, however, that in 1999, Iraq — along with Syria — was again identified by the U.S. Department of State as a government sponsor of terrorism, the only two Arab nations classified as state sponsors of terrorism at that time.

    ------------

    There are media reports of a group of Iraqi soldiers in Afghanistan. Jeffery Goldberg reported for The New Yorker in a February 2003 article entitled The CIA and Pentagon take another look at Al Qaeda and Iraq:

    "In interviews with senior officials, the following picture emerged: American intelligence believes that Al Qaeda and Saddam reached a non-aggression agreement in 1993, and that the relationship deepened further in the mid-nineteen-nineties, when an Al Qaeda operative — a native-born Iraqi who goes by the name Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi — was dispatched by bin Laden to ask the Iraqis for help in poison-gas training. Al-Iraqi's mission was successful, and an unknown number of trainers from an Iraqi secret-police organization called Unit 999 were dispatched to camps in Afghanistan to instruct Al Qaeda terrorists."

    -----------------

    This manual provides further evidence that the Iraqi military was active in Afghanistan and working with the Taliban. The Taliban harbored and trained with Al Qaeda. The information in the document matches media reports that U.S. intelligence sources believed the IIS was training Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. It also matches information from other IIS documentation that shows requests from Islamic Jihad groups in Afghanistan for Iraqi military assistance.

    FULL STORY HERE

    Again, the previous two documents are not conclusive on their own, but are in the very least interesting in light of all the documents and audio tapes translated so far.
  12. #32  
    Hobbes, from the Fact-O-Rama section of the Cyber Cast News Service?

    Your "mainstream" sources this time are from Fox News!

    Why don't you watch the Frontline documentary in my sig below, so you can see where "bombshell revelations" like this come from, and what the actual principles inside the CIA had, and have to say about the Vice President's own intelligence gathering apparatus that he created outside of the CIA that reports directly to him. And the investigation in to his office's leaking of that "Intelligence" if you want to call it that, directly to Fox News.

    Do you ever ask yourself why you can only find these kinds of "bombshell reports" on sites that sell right wing bumper stickers on them?
  13. NRG
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    #33  
    Has ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, or any other outlets reported this stuff?
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Has ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, or any other outlets reported this stuff?
    The CIA has already weighed in on most of this. Many of them have resigned over this administration's leaking of false and misleading intel to the media, and even Cheney's lobbying to have it inserted in to the NIB that was used to get congress to sign on the the war. Every single piece of prewar inteligence in that NIB turned out to be completely false. Coln powell who was asked to read it aloud has resigned.

    There is a reason it does not get reported in the mainstream, and even if it does, it is raw intel that has not yet been analized and corroborated by the CIA, and on top of that, it likely came from the Vice President's office.
  15. Jeb
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    #35  
    Check your PM Hobbes.
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Hobbes, from the Fact-O-Rama section of the Cyber Cast News Service?

    Your "mainstream" sources this time are from Fox News!
    Even NRG acknowledges Fox as Mainstream. You deny the FNS is mainstream? But there are still many other sources cited within the articles with original information. So the sources are Fox News....

    And....Global Security.org

    And...New Yorker

    And...CNS News

    And...Federation of American Scientists

    And...BBC News

    See the difference is I am willing to look at the forthcoming evidence and see what comes out of it. It may prove that Bush has been lying out his ear this whole time to a level that even the Harry Reed never suspected. And I recognize that there may be docs yet to translated that will support that.

    I do not doubt for a minute there was manipulation from the Admin in building up the war.....just as I know there was manipulation for the build up to WWII, and manipulation for the Spanish / American War....and probably every other war we have been in. Clinton did much of same thing as he was building up to another possible war in 1998 with nearly exactly the same claims and even passed the law for the US to bring about the Regime change in Iraq.

    But you are unwilling (or unable) to even address the idea that this new information, that has never been available to the public before, may actually support some of the original claims by Bush and by Clinton in 1998 for going into Iraq. You claim it is all just Fox News over and over and over again, even when there are multiple independent, non mirrored, sources listed and specifically pointed out.

    If you doubt the authenticity of the documents, then please read the documents for yourself at

    Operation Iraqi Freedom Document Portal
    Link: http://70.168.46.200/
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/06/2006 at 01:40 PM.
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Has ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, or any other outlets reported this stuff?
    They have, and I have sourced many of them in the first 10 or posts.

    I don't know about these last two items as they have just been released in the last two days....in the middle of the NK missile launches situation. But ABC was the one that originally broke the story with the first translation and analysis. My post above and in Post 25 lists the sources that have contributed information about these newly and yet to be translated documents numbering in the hundreds of thousands and over 3,000 hours of audio tapes from Saddam cabinet meetings.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/06/2006 at 02:02 PM.
  18. #38  
    You are accusing me of ignoring facts, but at the same time you have not watched the PBS documentary that are not reports from news outlets, left or right, but rather the PRINCIPLES talking about what they found, in their own words, coming from their OWN mouths. Including the deputy director of the CIA, the CIA agent in charge of the Bin Laden department, the CIA commando that was in charge of hunting down Bin Laden that called in the military at Tora Bora, among others.

    The documentary talks about the office of the Vice President literally restructuring the chain of command and the way intel is done, and the fact that he has the military pass pieces of intel directly up the chain of command to him and leaks them to the media to justify this war.
  19. #39  
    You are right, some day we will have a deep understanding of all of this once all these facts come out and have a chance to be compiled, but it wont change what we knew at the time we invaded Iraq, and what actions the administration took at that time, and we will not be any closer to understanding any of that by surfing the web for strewn bits of disconnected un-analized un-corroborated intel.
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    #40  
    Why is it Blaze when you post a news story we are suppose to believe it as fact, when somebody else does, and that story just happen to differ from your political views, you must attack and claim these stories are lies?
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