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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Here, I will make it easy for you...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
    I have a PBS West Bank Retrospective in front of me from Netflix. It's scratched. But thanks for the condesending Wikipedia link and the fair and balanced history lesson.
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    #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Right TomUps, except in your version of history millions of people in one entire half of the conflict are portrayed like murderous heathens with no language, no country, no right to vote, and less and less land every day.
    No, thats your version of my version.

    I do not think all Palestinians are "murderous heathens", only the ones that target innocent children and civilians with suicide bombings, only the ones that refuse to recognize Israelis right to exist, only the ones the spend every waking minute planning the destruction of Israel and all its (non arab) civilians, only the ones that celebrated and danced in the streets when 3000 of my fellow americans were murdered on 9-11.

    I am in favor of a Palestinian state, side by side with Israel. In this state Palestinians can have the right to vote and live free. They should not have a right to vote in Israel. Name one other country in the world that would allow this.

    As for the less and less land, poor decisions by their leadership, indifference to distance themselves from terror, and continous invasions of Arabs states into Israel has alot to do with it.

    I never said they had no language or culture. I said the have no unique palestinian language or culture because they dont. The palestinians living in Gaza and the Westbank are jordanian. (by the way, if you think Israelis persecute Palestinians, you should see how they are treated in jordan)

    My point is, you make accusations on falsehoods. Things you think have happened did not. No offense Blaze, but your version of history is just not true. Please read the link I sent you and you will see. Im not really sure what you think happened in 1948, but I bet in reality it happened a whole lot different.

    But thanks for the condesending Wikipedia link and the fair and balanced history lesson.
    If you dont like my link, find your own. Google will return plenty of results, or maybe you can open a book. Not sure why you say its condesending. Your have truthfully claimed you "do not know Israeli Palestinian well". Yet you make outrageous accusations about the creation of Israel that are not factual true. I hope your West Bank PBS documentry will enlighten you alittle
    Last edited by TomUps; 07/12/2006 at 10:23 PM.
  3. #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    It's called genetics hoovs.

    The consensus opinion is at any given moment, all the biodiversity of the human genome can be traced back to one man, and one woman, the mitochondral adam and eve, and that currently they are closer to our generation that Abraham, meaning that if abraham did in fact exist in the year it is thought that he did, and if his family line is not extinct, that all of the current diversity of our genome could be traced to him, or in other words, we are all "children of Abraham".

    Note, if by "check your facts again" you mean, look it up in the only fact book we will ever need "the Bible" then you are correct. You won't find it there.
    Well, at least you've retreated from "are" to "could be". But you still need to check your facts.
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Well, at least you've retreated from "are" to "could be". But you still need to check your facts.
    Sigh, ok, let me simplify it for you.

    The Mitochondrial Adam or most recent common ancestor of every living human was originally thought to have lived 150 thousand years ago, (I know, that is way before adam and eve were hiding from the T rex in the garden of eden, 5000 years ago), but more recent estimates have emerged suggesting that Motochondrial Adam lived during historical times, as recently as first millenium AD.

    This would mean that if Abraham existed, and his decendants are still alive, that every single human being on this earth can claim him as an ancestor. Or, that we are ALL children of Abraham.
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Sigh, ok, let me simplify it for you.

    The Mitochondrial Adam or most recent common ancestor of every living human was originally thought to have lived 150 thousand years ago, (I know, that is way before adam and eve were hiding from the T rex in the garden of eden, 5000 years ago), but more recent estimates have emerged suggesting that Motochondrial Adam lived during historical times, as recently as first millenium AD.

    This would mean that if Abraham existed, and his decendants are still alive, that every single human being on this earth can claim him as an ancestor. Or, that we are ALL children of Abraham.
    I'll give it to you blaze. You'll certainly go to great lengths just to not have to admit you're wrong. If Abraham existed, and if he has descendents living today and if the one single theory that puts human's most recent common ancestor within the last few thousand years is correct (which, by the way, essentially means that I, a Korubo indian, an Indian dalit, and an Ainu tribesman all have a common ancestor who lived no earlier than three millennia ago) then we are all descendents of Abraham. Sounds like there were a lot of foregone, and inappropriate, conclusions in your original post that you neglected to mention.
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I'll give it to you blaze. You'll certainly go to great lengths just to not have to admit you're wrong. If Abraham existed, and if he has descendents living today and if the one single theory that puts human's most recent common ancestor within the last few thousand years is correct (which, by the way, essentially means that I, a Korubo indian, an Indian dalit, and an Ainu tribesman all have a common ancestor who lived no earlier than three millennia ago) then we are all descendents of Abraham. Sounds like there were a lot of foregone, and inappropriate, conclusions in your original post that you neglected to mention.
    If your first 2 "ifs" are not so, then NONE of us are children of Abraham. The last "if" is the consensus opinion.
  7.    #207  
    I do find the Israel / Palestine discussion interesting I have interest in it.....but could we take it to it's own thread?

    Thanks.
  8. #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    If your first 2 "ifs" are not so, then NONE of us are children of Abraham. The last "if" is the consensus opinion.
    Hardly. Concensus opinion, if there is any, is that Mitochondrial Eve lived 150,000 years ago. Now, if you're talking about the most recent common ancestor then one theory (based not on genetics but migration patterns) puts that individual between 8,000 and 2,000 years ago.
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Hardly. Concensus opinion, if there is any, is that Mitochondrial Eve lived 150,000 years ago. Now, if you're talking about the most recent common ancestor then one theory (based not on genetics but migration patterns) puts that individual between 8,000 and 2,000 years ago.
    Which means that if we take you at your word on the consensus: if any of us are "children of Abraham", either we are ALL children of Abraham (2,000 years), or most of us are children of abraham (8,000 years). But no matter what, glad you learned something today.
  10. #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Which means that if we take you at your word on the consensus: if any of us are "children of Abraham", either we are ALL children of Abraham (2,000 years), or most of us are children of abraham (8,000 years). But no matter what, glad you learned something today.
    I didn't say the theory of the MRCA was a consensus. But that could only be true IF mathematical models are accurate, and by all accounts they are subject to many assumptions.

    However, going back to the original point, even IF all of this is true, Jewish tradition dictates that a person is a Jew only if his/her mother is Jewish. That would necessarily exclude that vast majority of the world. And, again, its their country so they get to make the rules.
  11. #211  
    All,

    I deference to Hobbes thread, I created another thread to discuss the Israel/Palestine/Lebanon situation here.
  12.    #212  
    Here is an original document......no 3rd party news source like ABC, MSNBC, Fox, Wall Street Journal, etc.......that does not offer a lot of new information but shows Saddam's regime's actual moving around weapons and chemicals to hide them when they discovered that we discovered where they were hiding them. I found it especially interesting that they were hiding Chemical materials in schools!

    Document: ISGZ-2004-007589
    Title: Correspondence from IIS to MIC regarding information gathering by foreign intelligencve taken by satellite for WMD, nuclear activity chemicals or hidden missles, ect.


    We were informed by one of our sources working abroad, that foreign intelligence is working to obtain information about some military and scientific targets in the Country. The undercover source provided us with a map of the targets, for which he was assigned to gather information during his visit to the Country. For the purpose of pointing out the enemy’s interest, and to enable you to maneuver by changing the locations of these targets, in order to foil enemy’s plans, we hereby list the following:

    1- He was presented with a map by the Foreign Intelligence, indicating the nuclear sites in the Country. Our source noticed that most of the sites are located near Mawsil and on the Tigris River, and some on the outskirts of Baghdad.

    2- Another map indicated the Chemical sites, of which most are located in the suburbs of Baghdad, north and south of the city. It was noticeable that the sites north of Baghdad were more numerous than those in the south. The Map also marked some sites located on the outskirt of Mawsil City.

    3- The third map marked the sites of long range Missiles.

    4- A satellite image of the Al-Taji area, indicated orchards located in the triangle of Kirkuk-Mawsil Road, after the Baghdad Gate. Our source was informed that missiles and important military equipment were hidden in these orchards. He was asked to go to the area and observe whether it was well protected by military units and check the presence of any radar [TC: Satellite Dishes] in the area.

    5- There are a large number of hidden missiles in the Al-Mahawil and Jubaylah area.

    6- There is a warehouse for chemical material in the Al-Mahmudiyah area.

    7- On the Baghdad-Falujah road and near Falujah checkpoint, there is a nonfunctional Cement Factory, which is being used for storing Chemical materials. Please observe whether there is any protection around the Factory.

    8- Missiles were hidden in the triangle located near the Presidential Palace along the highway to Saddam’s International Airport.

    9- There is a missile testing laboratory in the Al-`Amiriyah area.

    10- There is secret airport designated for emergency use in the Al-`Aziziyah area, where sixty-five missiles are hidden.

    11- Chemical materials were moved from the Al-Qa`qa` depot and hidden in the Industrial High School in Al-Musayib, in the Agricultural High School at al-Yussifiyyah, and other specific schools in al-Mahmudiyyah.

    12- Al-Taji Area (Al-Tarmiyyah Triangle).

    13- Al-Tharthar area (Tal al-Tharthar) [TC: could be Mountain], north west of the mountain slope (tourist area) [TC: Al-Tharthar is considered a tourist area]

    14- Also Missiles were hidden at Biji Refinery.

    ORIGINAL DOCUMENT: http://70.168.46.200/Released/07-13-...9-HT-DHM2A.pdf

    http://70.168.46.200/searchResults.a...07589-HT-DHM2A
  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Here is an original document......no 3rd party news source like ABC, MSNBC, Fox, Wall Street Journal, etc.......that does not offer a lot of new information but shows Saddam's regime's actual moving around weapons and chemicals to hide them when they discovered that we discovered where they were hiding them. I found it especially interesting that they were hiding Chemical materials in schools!
    Hobbes,

    Your "original", is a document that was typed by the Bush Administration, and hosted on their OWN Website.

    The top of which reads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bush Military Document Portal Website
    At the request of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, the US Army Foreign Military Studies Office has created this portal to provide the general public with access to unclassified documents and media captured during Operation Iraqi Freedom. The US Government has made no determination regarding the authenticity of the documents, validity or factual accuracy of the information contained therein, or the quality of any translations, when available.
    and
    The documents contained on this site were captured during Operation Iraqi Freedom and represent a dramatic departure from previous document release efforts which have historically taken place decades after the cessation of hostilities. Viewers are urged to carefully read the disclaimer above.
    Where do you think they came from Hobbes? Who do you think found them and where? Why do you think they were translated so quickly, declassified, and posted on a dedicated website? What do you think the CIA has to say about these "documents"? How do you feel this fits in to the reports that Vice President Cheney has his own "inteligence gathering" force, inside the military, soely under his control and outside of the CIA, and has been investigated for leaking unsubstantiated and misleading intel to the media? And reports that the administration has more people finding, "translating", and declassifying documents such as these than they do looking for Osama?
  14.    #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Hobbes,

    Your "original", is a document that was typed by the Bush Administration, and hosted on their OWN Website.
    I see no matter what source it is, you attack the source.

    In nearly every case the original doc in Arabic (or whatever language they were originally written) are available for anyone to cross reference.

    Yet Again.....it is NOT the Bush admin that are translating these docs.

    How many times can I say these are simply a point of interest only? Nothing proving anything by themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    The top of which reads.
    I have already posted the information you quoted and does not differ from what I have personally said several times over and over and over and over and.....

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    andWhere do you think they came from Hobbes? Who do you think found them and where? Why do you think they were translated so quickly, declassified, and posted on a dedicated website? What do you think the CIA has to say about these "documents"? How do you feel this fits in to the reports that Vice President Cheney has his own "inteligence gathering" force, inside the military, soely under his control and outside of the CIA, and has been investigated for leaking unsubstantiated and misleading intel to the media? And reports that the administration has more people finding, "translating", and declassifying documents such as these than they do looking for Osama?
    I have already directly answered every single one of your questions the last time you or another member already asked these same questions in this thread.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/21/2006 at 02:25 PM.
  15.    #215  
    Here is a memo sent to the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) about their reaction to a mass grave found in Southern Iraq in 2001.

    I found it interesting that one of the first steps was to check for radiation......is that common in mass graves?

    Then they were going to use trusted News Media and CNN to leak rumors that the Coalition did it.

    Then honor all the dead.

    Pages 3-5 contain a Secret memo signed on behalf of the Head of 5th Directorate (Translator Comment (TC): no name indicated) and sent from the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) to the 1st Department of the 4th Directorate regarding information about mass graves in the Southern Area of Iraq, and the rituals and ceremonies to be made for the dead people. The memo was dated 07 February 2001, and contained the following notes:

    • The IIS has no information about the mass graves in the Southern Area.
    Graves have to be tested for the presence of nuclear radiation.
    Were they buried alive or did they die of suffocation?
    • Were they military or civilian?
    • Was there any identification of their names?
    • Place signs and accurate details for the mass graves to be reached easily.
    Use trusted news agencies to leak rumors and information that there is a misunderstanding and signs from some Coalition Forces members regarding the presence of the mass graves in Southern Iraq.
    • Request assistance from some friendly countries that possess the technological capabilities to search for these graves.
    • Give CNN the priority to cover this incident to make a bigger effect on the international community .
    Leak rumors to trusted media sources that the atrocities and mass graves found in the Southern Area were committed by the Coalition Forces. This is in order to make these actions noticeable as monstrous and inhuman to the whole world.
    • After that, the remains are to be taken out of the graves; military procedures and arrangements will be made to pay the deceased their last respect. Also the building of memorial statues for the dead in every governorate.

    ORIGINAL DOCUMENT: http://70.168.46.200/Released/07-13-...4-00224003.pdf
  16. #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Here is a memo sent to the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) about their reaction to a mass grave found in Southern Iraq in 2001.

    I found it interesting that one of the first steps was to check for radiation......is that common in mass graves?

    Then they were going to use trusted News Media and CNN to leak rumors that the Coalition did it.

    Then honor all the dead.
    Testing for radiation translates to, did these people die from shrapnel from depleted uranium rounds, IE the U.S.
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    #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Testing for radiation translates to, did these people die from shrapnel from depleted uranium rounds, IE the U.S.
    When do you think the depleted uranium rounds were used to kill enough to fill mass graves? I find it more likely that these mass graves were more in line with the rest of the mass graves from the murderous Saddam regime. But if you want to blame the US, that is up to you.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    When do you think the depleted uranium rounds were used to kill enough to fill mass graves? I find it more likely that these mass graves were more in line with the rest of the mass graves from the murderous Saddam regime. But if you want to blame the US, that is up to you.
    I am commenting on the content of the memo which, whether authentic or not, seems to be trying to make the case that these were mass graves caused by the U.S. militay in the Gulf War.
  19.    #219  
    Before all the flames come...this is simply a report from the Iraqi Intelligence Service about these claims that they heard from Iran, asking what to do about them.....not confirming these links.

    Title: 2001 IIS report on Osama Bin Laden /Taliban/Iraq connection claims

    Page 1
    71//
    In the Name of God the Most Merciful the Most Compassionate Office of the Presidency
    Intelligence Service
    M5/3/9/2

    The Honorable Mr. General Director Manager M5

    Subject: Information Our Afghani source numbered 11002 had provided us with the information on the denotation paper number -1- ) The Afghani Consul Ahmad Dahstani (the information on the denotation paper number (2)) had mentioned in front of him with the followings:

    1. Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban Group in Afghanistan were in touch with the Iraqis and that group of the Talibans and Osama Bin Laden had visited Iraq.

    2. The United States of America has evidence that the Iraqi government and Osama Bin Laden's group expressed cooperation among themselves in bombing targets in American.

    3. In case Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban were proven to have been involved in carrying out these terrorist operations, it could be possible that the United Stated will attack both Iraq and Afghanistan.

    4. The Afghani consul heard about the connection between the Iraqis and the Osama Bin Laden group during his stay in Iran.

    5. Upon what has been presented we suggest writing to the Intention

    Committee with the above information.

    Please revise…Your recommendation …. With appreciation,

    Director,
    M5/3
    15/9/2001

    Khalid 15/9

    Immediately to be presented to the Intention Committee President

    ORIGINAL DOC: http://70.168.46.200/Released/07-21-...003-001488.pdf
    BTW....if you are interested the what all the M5 or M2 titles are in the IIS, here is a CIA report on them:

    https://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq...ap1_annxB.html
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/21/2006 at 06:39 PM.
  20.    #220  
    Here is another Doc ordering an investigation due within 72 hours about how and who left behind a document about banned weapons that the UN team found with the word "Special" on it, after they were ordered to destroy all documents about the use of banned weapons by the Iraqi Airforce.

    The following are the testimonies they collected during the investigation testifying that they followed the orders to hide documents from the UN inspectors (one guy was order to hide the docs in his personal car during the UN inspection) and destroy them (one guy testifies to destroying 14 bags of documents) so the UN inspector do not find them. I stopped quoting less than halfway through the doc, but did include a summary of their findings:

    Q1: Wing Commander Mazin Makki Muhammad Rashid, the Assistant Commander of the Surveillance Department in the First Section of the Aerial Movement Directorate, was interrogated about the reason and the person who asked him to sign a statement stating that there are no documents records, material and equipment related to the banned weapons. He replied:

    A1: The other officers and I were asked by the Assistant of the Section Commander to destroy all documents related to the banned weapons. Therefore, I searched my office, and found nothing. Afterwards, the officers and I searched the section office and destroyed many of these documents.

    Q2: What measures did you take, when the Inspection Team entered the Commands Complex at 0900 hr on 18 Jul 1998?

    A2: I participated with other officers in evacuating the secret dossiers and documents from the file cabinet in the directorate.

    --------------------------

    A1: I was informed along with the section's officers by the Section Deputy Director to destroy all documents and records pertaining to aerial reconnaissance. Thereafter I searched my office and I did not find anything that could create a problem related to reconnaissance equipment, after that I inspected the documents related to the weapons along with the section's officers, we transported about four bags of documents to be destroyed.

    Q2- What measures did you take when the mentioned inspection team entered the headquarters complex at 09:00 hrs on 18 Jul 1998?

    A2-Along with the other section officers I transported the files that contained special secret documents, Air Commodore Ansaf gave me some files and told me that they are pertaining to the Office of Air vice Marshal Hamid. The files were placed in my private car parked at the Headquarters complex parking area. After that I went to the Command Operation Center at 13:45 hrs as I was on guard for that day, i.e. before the entry of the inspection committee in the section.

    ---------------------------

    A- I searched all the files saved on the computer to be sure that there are no documents related to the banned weapons, not only this but all other documents and record, in addition to getting rid of all files saved on the floppy disks by the officers who burned all related records and documents.

    --------------------------

    A2: Yes, we repeatedly confirmed the concerned individuals to destroy anything which is relation to the banned weapons.

    ---------------------------

    A1: Yes, I was notified by the Air Operations Directorate and the Staff Air vice Marshal Hamid Raja Shallah, about the necessity of deleting any document or reference referring to the banned weapons previously used by the Air Force. We took all the procedures to execute this notification; we destroyed all the documents that referred to the use of these weapons by our Air Force, destroying about 14 bags.

    --------------------------

    The notification of destroying all the documents that indicate the Air Force use of the prohibited weapons was received prior to me joining the section, consequently, the contents of the file cabinet were not checked, because it was previously checked and everything which included the word “special” was deleted. This is my testimony and I acknowledge it

    ---------------

    A1 (A): The notification that came from our superiors to destroy all the documents and records of banned weapons was in 1992, we were notified verbally. We notified all the concerned air bases, deputy directorates, directorates and commands to execute the notification. Moreover, the notifications were repeated frequently during our visits to the air bases.

    (B) Every time we were notified that there is an inspection team visiting Iraq, I would hold a meeting with all the concerned deputy directors and commanders to confirm the necessity of the removal of all documents or records related to the banned weapons

    ---------------

    Investigation Council Decision

    2- During the inspection of the Air Operations Directorate with all of its departments and sections in a detailed manner searching all stores, rooms and safes, and while opening the safe of the First Section (Operations and Plans Section), a file was found. The file contains the final status of the expenditures of the ammunitions during the Iraq-Iran war since 1980- 1988. In addition, the word (private) was written in this document on two types of bombs that were used in this war as mentioned in the attached file with the decision of the Investigating Council.

    3- The reason for writing this status in the file is because it is considered a confirmed source
    for the weapons used during the Iraq-Iran war and required by all superiors continuously
    especially for the National Monitoring Directorate for the purpose of knowing the balance of
    the BR-500 bombs which caused problems with the Special Committee...........

    5- The Investigating Council found out that the previously mentioned section followed the orders of the superiors regarding destroying all of the documents relating to the banned weapons and they damaged 12 bags of files and plans. In addition, the section hid many important files during the presence of the Special Committee members, before they arrive and while granting approval to enter.



    ORIGINAL DOCUMENT: http://70.168.46.200/Released/07-21-...3-00300856.pdf
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/22/2006 at 01:37 AM.
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