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  1. TomUps's Avatar
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    #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I do not think it was worth our American lives and billions of dollars just to get him. But that is water under the bridge, regardless of that, it is good for Iraq he is out of power, hope they finish the trial and hang him. He is scum.
    I somewhat agree, thats why I was in favor of the war, but I would of pulled all our troops out the day after Saddam was captured. Its not worth American blood to help Iraqis find away to live together in peace if they don't want to.
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    #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Interesting native american analogy, but I think you have it a little backwards. Pushing aside the palestinians would have been more like pushing the American's in to the reservations and handing over the United States to the Native Americans.

    Give the tanks and air craft carriers to the enemy, and the Sean Hannity crowd would be the first ones with bombs strapped to their chests, only we would call them patriots.
    Sorry blaze, anybody that targets babies and children in resturants and shopping malls can never be called a patriot, and can never claim the moral highground.

    I definately do not see your point on the native americans.
  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Sorry blaze, anybody that targets babies and children in resturants and shopping malls can never be called a patriot, and can never claim the moral highground.
    And therin lies the hypocracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I definately do not see your point on the native americans.
    You don't? It goes like this. The idea of moving the palestinians aside to make room for the Israelis because Moses promised it to the Isrialites 5000 years ago, is perhaps even more silly than moving the American's aside because America belongs to the Natives.
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    #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    And therin lies the hypocracy.You don't? It goes like this. The idea of moving the palestinians aside to make room for the Israelis because Moses promised it to the Isrialites 5000 years ago, is perhaps even more silly than moving the American's aside because America belongs to the Natives.
    Please explain the hypocracy on denouncing the targeting and blowing up babies and children in malls and calling it an act of patriotism. Somehow, I just cant see George Washington sending a minuteman into a british school with a bomb strapped to his waste and murdering innocent children. Blaze, I know you can do it, admit that its wrong.

    Now, please explain who "moved the palestinians aside" because of moses? Do you know your Israeli history? You are aware that there were jews living there before and at the time of Israelis creation in 1948, right?
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Now, please explain who "moved the palestinians aside" because of moses? Do you know your Israeli history? You are aware that there were jews living there before and at the time of Israelis creation in 1948, right?
    Not too well, but I doubt you "know your israeli history" much better. I know that justification used for taking palestenian land was Moses promising it to them 5000 years ago.
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    #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Not too well, but I doubt you "know your israeli history" much better. I know that justification used for taking palestenian land was Moses promising it to them 5000 years ago.
    Um, as someone who has been there six times, I might beg to differ. What made it palestinian land? When was there ever a country called Palestine? Who made the Palestinians leave? Show me any document, or link you can produce, that shows the UN mandate forced palestinians to leave.

    Still waiting for you to denounce baby killing.
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Please explain the hypocracy on denouncing the targeting and blowing up babies and children in malls and calling it an act of patriotism. Somehow, I just cant see George Washington sending a minuteman into a british school with a bomb strapped to his waste and murdering innocent children. Blaze, I know you can do it, admit that its wrong.
    Admit that killing babies is wrong?!? Please stick to defining your side of the discussion only TomUps, not mine.

    First, funny that you bring up the minute men, because their strategy was viewed as constituting war crimes as well. But we lacked the resources to to fight the british symmetrically. At least without the help of the French.

    Secondly, I don't think it matters much to the babies if they are dead because their apartment building was leveled with a 2000 pound bomb where a terrorist was suspected to live, or if they were on a plane that was used to attack the Pentagon, both dead babies could be characterized as "collateral damage", both are disgusting.

    Lastly, I don't remember calling George Washington a suicide bomber, I think I said "the Sean Hannity Crowd". IE, those that love America because its what WE ARE, not for the principles for which she stands.
  8. #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Um, as someone who has been there six times, I might beg to differ. What made it palestinian land? When was there ever a country called Palestine? Who made the Palestinians leave? Show me any document, or link you can produce, that shows the UN mandate forced palestinians to leave.
    Because they did not organize their government with documents in the same way we did (much the same as the natives) does not mean the land did not belong to them.
  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Not too well, but I doubt you "know your israeli history" much better. I know that justification used for taking palestenian land was Moses promising it to them 5000 years ago.
    Actually they believe God promised it to the descendents of Abraham. And for over 3500 years Jews have been in that land, have been exiled, have returned to the land only to be exiled again. Its easy to see why they would refuse Uganda as the home for a Jewish state in deference to the Mandate of Palestine. And, with the wholesale slaughter of Jews in Europe, its easy to see why they would want a land of their own. That's not to excuse everything they've done but neither do the Palestinian Arabs have a guiltess history.
  10. #190  
    1.) If Abraham existed, we are all genetically descendants of Abraham. 2.)I have not claimed to be an expert on this topic, but it is my view that a 5000 year old biblical promise does not constitute "right of return".
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    #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Because they did not organize their government with documents in the same way we did (much the same as the natives) does not mean the land did not belong to them.
    wow, you really do not know your history. Let me teach you.
    1. There has NEVER been a country called Palestine
    2. Gaza, and the Westbank were not captured from Palestine, they were captured from Jordan (who attacked Israel).
    3. There is no Palestinian language or culture, because there never was a Palestine.
    4. Palestinians have never ruled the land that you call Palestine.
    5. Temple Mount (considered by Muslims to be one of their most holiest sites) was never mentioned once in the koran
    6. Immediately after Israel was formed in 1948, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, and Jordan invaded. They were ofcourse defeated. About 1 million Palestinians were displaced from the land that Israel captured, and about 1 million jews were displaced from Arab lands they were expelled from.
    7. Before the 1967 invasion of Israel by its Arab neighbors, there were no calls for a Palestinian state.
    8. The 1948 mandate called for both the creation of a jewish state and an arab state. The jews agreed, the arabs did not. What could have been.
    9. By the time Israel was created in 1948, 35% of all persons in Israel were jewish. They didnt magically appear after the UN established it.
    Last edited by TomUps; 07/12/2006 at 08:56 PM.
  12. #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    1.) If Abraham existed, we are all genetically descendants of Abraham.
    What the??? Um, no. You might want to check your facts again.

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    2.)I have not claimed to be an expert on this topic, but it is my view that a 5000 year old biblical promise does not constitute "right of return".
    The "right of return" was established by the State of Israel. The fact that they have a state gives them the right to do so.
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    wow, you really do not know your history. Let me teach you.
    A perfectly accurate, fair, and balanced historical account I am sure TomUps. Forive me and millions of others however if we reserve judgement.
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    1. There has NEVER been a country called Palestine
    2. Gaza, and the Westbank were not captured from Palestine, they were captured from Jordan (who attacked Israel).
    Of course there wasn't a "country" called palestine. There was also not a "country" called United States, but we still stole this land.
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    3. There is no Palestinian language or culture, because there never was a Palestine.
    Your comment about their lack of culture is vile.
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    4. Palestinians have never ruled the land that you call Palestine.
    The land "I" call palestine?

    Not ruling the non existant country "I" call Palestine, and yet not and yet do you think the Israili's will let the Palestinians vote?
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    5. Temple Mount (considered by Muslims to be one of their most holiest sites) was never mentioned once in the koran
    Forgive me again if I let the Muslims decide how much Temple Mount means to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    6. Immediately after Israel was formed in 1948, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, and Jordan invaded. They were ofcourse defeated. About 1 million Palestinians were displaced from the land that Israel captured, and about 1 million jews were displaced from Arab lands they were expelled from.
    Defeated by whom? No matter I guess, to the victor goes the spoils right?

    For the 3rd time, I have not claimed to know the Israeli Palestinian history well, however what I said was sticking a flag in the soil as if nobody was living there, dropping off the displaced Jews to form a new country, and justifying it with Moses' 5000 year old biblical promise is even more silly as handing the United States back to the Native Americans.
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    #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    The "right of return" was established by the State of Israel. The fact that they have a state gives them the right to do so.
    Exactly. "The Law of Return" was passed in 1950. It gaves all Jews the right to immigrate to Israel.
  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    The "right of return" was established by the State of Israel. The fact that they have a state gives them the right to do so.
    If only the Native Americans had thought of sticking a flag in the soil before we arrived.
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    What the??? Um, no. You might want to check your facts again.
    It's called genetics hoovs.

    The consensus opinion is at any given moment, all the biodiversity of the human genome can be traced back to one man, and one woman, the mitochondral adam and eve, and that currently they are closer to our generation that Abraham, meaning that if abraham did in fact exist in the year it is thought that he did, and if his family line is not extinct, that all of the current diversity of our genome could be traced to him, or in other words, we are all "children of Abraham".

    Note, if by "check your facts again" you mean, look it up in the only fact book we will ever need "the Bible" then you are correct. You won't find it there.
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    #197  
    A perfectly accurate, fair, and balanced historical account I am sure TomUps. Forive me and millions of others however if we reserve judgement.
    Everything I said can be found in an Encyclopedia or with a google search.

    Of course there wasn't a "country" called palestine. There was also not a "country" called United States, but we still stole this land.
    Once again, how did the jews steal the land, if they were already there? Please support your theory with historical proof.

    Your comment about their lack of culture is vile.
    How is the truth vile?

    Not ruling the non existant country "I" call Palestine, and yet not and yet do you think the Israili's will let the Palestinians vote?
    Why? Does the US let Canadians vote? They are not Israeli citizens. Did you know 20% of Israel is made up of Arabs though. Full rights and citenzenship. Cant make that same claim with jews in any other arab country.

    For the 3rd time, I have not claimed to know the Israeli Palestinian history well,
    Clearly

    what I said was sticking a flag in the soil as if nobody was living there, dropping off the displaced Jews to form a new country, and justifying it with Moses' 5000 year old biblical promise is even more silly as handing the United States back to the Native Americans.
    And ofcourse completely untrue and not based on one bit of truth. Look it up. Google is your friend.
  18. #198  
    Of course TomUps, only your history version has a basis in truth, the Israelis are the only ones with a claim to Palestine, the Palestinians have no culture, no right to vote, and anyone who says otherwise needs to make friends with Google.
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    #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Of course TomUps, only your history version has a basis in truth, the Israelis are the only ones with a claim to Palestine, the Palestinians have no culture, no right to vote, and anyone who says otherwise needs to make friends with Google.
    Whats my version of history? History is history. Arabs in the land of Palestine were offered their own state, side by side with Israel in 1948. They turned it down, they wanted it all.

    Palestinians dont have a right to vote because their not Israelis. I cant vote in Australian elections.

    Jews were not transported into Israel after the UN mandate and kicked out Palestinians. They were already there.

    Israeli granted the law of return 2 years after the creation of Israel which allowed all Jews to immigrate. Whats the problem with that?

    If you dont believe me look into it yourself. Its kind of mind boggling to me that someone can have such a negative view of Israel based on an admitted lack of knowledge on the topic. Your repeated mentioning of planting a flag pole and stealing land has no factual basis whatsoever. But I dont expect the truth to change your opinion.

    Here, I will make it easy for you...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

    plenty of negate ISraeli stuff in there too.
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Whats my version of history? History is history. Arabs in the land of Palestine were offered their own state, side by side with Israel in 1948. They turned it down, they wanted it all.

    Palestinians dont have a right to vote because their not Israelis. I cant vote in Australian elections.

    Jews were not transported into Israel after the UN mandate and kick out Palestinians. They were already there.

    Israeli granted the law of return 2 years after the creation of Israel which allowed all Jews to immigrate. Whats the problem with that?

    If you dont believe me look into it yourself. Its kind of mind boggling to me that someone can have such a negative view of Israel based on an admitted lack of knowledge on the topic. Your repeated mentioning of planting a flag pole and stealing land has no factual basis whatsoever. But I dont expect the truth to change your opinion.
    Right TomUps, except in your version of history millions of people in one entire half of the conflict are portrayed like murderous heathens with no language, no country, no right to vote, and less and less land every day.
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