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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Oh, and geomancy.org? Would you let me use a similarly questionable source?
    I though we were talking myths


    Anyway, they provide a link to the original source.

    Firmament
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    (Sept. stereoma; Vulgate, firmamentum).

    The notion that the sky was a vast solid dome seems to have been common among the ancient peoples whose ideas of cosmology have come down to us. Thus the Egyptians conceived the heavens to be an arched iron ceiling from which the stars were suspended by means of cables (Chabas, LĂAntiquiteĂ historique, Paris, 1873, pp. 64-67). Likewise to the mind of the Babylonians the sky was an immense dome, forged out of the hardest metal by the hand of Merodach (Marduk) and resting on a wall surrounding the earth (Jensen, Die Kosmologie der Babylonier, Strasburg, 1890, pp. 253, 260). According to the notion prevalent among the Greeks and Romans, the sky was a great vault of crystal to which the fixed stars were attached, though by some it was held to be of iron or brass. That the Hebrews entertained similar ideas appears from numerous biblical passages. In the first account of the creation (Genesis 1) we read that God created a firmament to divide the upper or celestial from the lower or terrestrial waters. The Hebrew word means something beaten or hammered out, and thus extended; the Vulgate rendering, ˘firmamentum÷ corresponds more closely with the Greek stereoma (Septuagint, Aquila, and Symmachus), ˘something made firm or solid÷. The notion of the solidity of the firmament is moreover expressed in such passages as Job, xxxvii, 18, where reference is made incidentally to the heavens, ˘which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass÷. The same is implied in the purpose attributed to God in creating the firmament, viz. to serve as a wall of separation between the upper and lower of water, it being conceived as supporting a vast celestial reservoir; and also in the account of the deluge (Genesis 7), where we read that the ˘flood gates of heaven were opened÷, and shut up÷ (viii, 2). (Cf. also IV 28 sqq.) Other passages e.g. Is., xlii, 5, emphasize rather the idea of something extended: ˘Thus saith the Lord God that created the heavens and stretched them out÷ (Cf. Isaiah 44:24, and 40:22). In conformity with these ideas, the writer of Gen., i, 14-17, 20 represents God as setting the stars in the firmament of heaven, and the fowls are located beneath it, i.e. in the air as distinct from the firmament. On this point as on many others, the Bible simply reflects the current cosmological ideas and language of the time.
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06079b.htm

    Surur
  2. #102  
    On this point as on many others, the Bible simply reflects the current cosmological ideas and language of the time.
    Like I said, it was written in observational language. I don't know that I would can say conclusively if Genesis was written using expressions of the time or if those expressions were developed based on the writings of Genesis. I tend towards the latter in this case. Nonetheless, as I said before, its not meant to be read as a science text.
  3. #103  
    Crap, I'm tired. I was thinking of the word "idiom" but wrote axiom. Then thought, wait, that's not right. But I couldn't think of the dang word. I guess its time for bed.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Like I said, it was written in observational language. I don't know that I would can say conclusively if Genesis was written using expressions of the time or if those expressions were developed based on the writings of Genesis. I tend towards the latter in this case. Nonetheless, as I said before, its not meant to be read as a science text.
    Even today many expressions come from the bible, as do many from Shakespeare. Seems reason enough for it to be read in literature class.

    Of course many phrases these days come from the movies. I'm sure "You'll be back!"

    Surur
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Even today many expressions come from the bible, as do many from Shakespeare. Seems reason enough for it to be read in literature class.

    Of course many phrases these days come from the movies. I'm sure "You'll be back!"

    Surur
    blasphemer
  6. #106  
    "Jesus' concept is not too hard to grasp. Do unto others as you would have done to you."

    Very good understanding of one of the two greatest commandments, NRG.
    Don't forget the other one, to love the Lord your God...

    But still a poor understanding of Christianity. If that was it, the Bible could be one paragraph long, and by just being good to each other, we'd earn our way. But it is not about us earning our way. We can't. He had to die as our substitution to pay the cost of our sin. If we could just will to be "good" enough, then He would be a fool to die when he didn't have to. He even asked the Father if there was another way. Diluting it down to just being nice to each other cheapens it. That's where grace and unmerrited favor come in. Maybe we should teach the Bible, if not in schools, then somewhere in the culture. If the misunderstanding in your post is what people think Christ is all about- we haven't been doing a very good job.

    Stepping off the pulpit now, all the best.

    (and thank you for trying to be nice).
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
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  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1
    "Jesus' concept is not too hard to grasp. Do unto others as you would have done to you."

    Very good understanding of one of the two greatest commandments, NRG.
    Don't forget the other one, to love the Lord your God...

    But still a poor understanding of Christianity. If that was it, the Bible could be one paragraph long, and by just being good to each other, we'd earn our way. But it is not about us earning our way. We can't. He had to die as our substitution to pay the cost of our sin. If we could just will to be "good" enough, then He would be a fool to die when he didn't have to. He even asked the Father if there was another way. Diluting it down to just being nice to each other cheapens it. That's where grace and unmerrited favor come in. Maybe we should teach the Bible, if not in schools, then somewhere in the culture. If the misunderstanding in your post is what people think Christ is all about- we haven't been doing a very good job.

    Stepping off the pulpit now, all the best.

    (and thank you for trying to be nice).
    Huh?

    I don't think jesus was in the old testament Mythology we were discussing.
  8.    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Huh?

    I don't think jesus was in the old testament Mythology we were discussing.
    You have confirmed duandedude1's point. Your understanding of both the text and of the related belief system (at least the way your understanding is portrayed in this exchange) is limited at best. For example, Jesus is all in the "old testament." In fact without the old testament, we would have no understanding of who Jesus was and is.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    You have confirmed duandedude1's point. Your understanding of both the text and of the related belief system (at least the way your understanding is portrayed in this exchange) is limited at best. For example, Jesus is all in the "old testament." In fact without the old testament, we would have no understanding of who Jesus was and is.
    My god, lets all hope you never teach literature or History.

    Exactly what part of my understanding of Old Testament stories is "limited at best". The part where Jesus (8BC to 29BC) is "all in the old testament"? (5th century BC)?

    Yes we have all heard you explain to how yours is the only true religion of the world, how Jesus was a walking god, and how the Jews, the Muslims, the Historians, the Hindus, the Athiests, and pretty much everybody except for you have an understanding that is "limited at best".

    Tell that to your children, but if you are saying it belongs in public school, your understanding of education is "limited at best".
  10.    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    My god, lets all hope you never teach literature or History.

    Exactly what part of my understanding of Old Testament stories is "limited at best". The part where Jesus (8BC to 29BC) is "all in the old testament"? (5th century BC)?
    That's the part
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74

    Yes we have all heard you explain to how yours is the only true religion of the world, how Jesus was a walking god, and how the Jews, the Muslims, the Historians, the Hindus, the Athiests, and pretty much everybody except for you have an understanding that is "limited at best".
    I have not done a search of all my posts, but I'm fairly certain you have not read an explanation of this sort in my posts. More importantly, I would be delighted to share my views with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74

    Tell that to your children, but if you are saying it belongs in public school, your understanding of education is "limited at best".
    I'm unclear on the "it" to which you are referring. If "it" is your statements that I quoted , then we agree they don't belong in public school.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    I'm amused that the western (Christian) culture dismisses all non-Christian religious stuff as mythology. Remember Greek and Roman "Mythology" (Zeus etc?). Same for Egyptian and Indian scriptures ..

    To a non-believer, the Bible is Mythology.
    I think the best examples of mythology were my grade school U.S. history books.
    Now that was some serious fiction!
    Last edited by gaffa; 06/12/2006 at 01:06 PM.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    There are no people who believe Zeus, or Athena are / were real? None and never? If there were / are, does this mean the Illiad is not Mythology?

    The belief by some or many in Old Testament stories does not mean they do not fit the definition of Mythology.

    They are Mythology, and they are literature.
    I guess a good question would be, is any literature that cannot be proven, myth?
  13. #113  
    I guess a good question would be, is any literature that cannot be proven, myth?

    It would have to be believed by some people, but have been investigated and found implausible, e.g the myth of Alligators in the sewers. Some people believe it, but its implausible, therefore its a myth, vs the story of the duck-billed platypus, which was implausible, but turned out to be, on investigation, to be true.

    Surur
  14. #114  
    Who defines plausible? Who does the investigation. Do you have to be a scholar or scientist?
  15. #115  
    No need to be strict about it. New data can make us re-evaluate things. Any proof will never convince some percentage either way. One has to take credibility into account of course.

    Surur
  16. #116  
    I am an English teacher in a high school. We have been down this road, many times. I am amazed at how little my students know about even the most popular Biblical stories. Ask my students what the phrase "the writing on the wall" refers too, maybe 1 will know. Ask them about Abraham, the ultimate moral challenge in killing his own son--they have no clue. There are just so many references, both direct and indirect, that are completely lost on them. Reading Shakespeare is so frustrating without Biblical knowledge!

    I had a college philosophy professor. He was a complete athiest, but he brought a Bible to every class. He said you simply could not understand literature without it, period. He didn't believe a word, but he had it there.

    When one parent complained about me simply explaining a story, I asked her if I should eliminate all the Greek Mythology, American Indian Myth, Middle Eastern Myths, etc. She finally condeded that if she believed the Bible to be nothing more than a mythical text, she had no reason to object to its usage as it directly related to the curriculum.

    People get so worked up because it is the Bible. But the fact is, in a literature classroom, we have to study it from time to time. No, I don't design a lesson around Biblical stories (though I think I should be allowed to, especially since I teach so much completely useless mythology that they will never reference again). You can not completely ban the book from a literature classroom.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by emunch
    I am an English teacher in a high school. We have been down this road, many times. I am amazed at how little my students know about even the most popular Biblical stories. Ask my students what the phrase "the writing on the wall" refers too, maybe 1 will know. Ask them about Abraham, the ultimate moral challenge in killing his own son--they have no clue. There are just so many references, both direct and indirect, that are completely lost on them. Reading Shakespeare is so frustrating without Biblical knowledge!

    I had a college philosophy professor. He was a complete athiest, but he brought a Bible to every class. He said you simply could not understand literature without it, period. He didn't believe a word, but he had it there.

    When one parent complained about me simply explaining a story, I asked her if I should eliminate all the Greek Mythology, American Indian Myth, Middle Eastern Myths, etc. She finally condeded that if she believed the Bible to be nothing more than a mythical text, she had no reason to object to its usage as it directly related to the curriculum.

    People get so worked up because it is the Bible. But the fact is, in a literature classroom, we have to study it from time to time. No, I don't design a lesson around Biblical stories (though I think I should be allowed to, especially since I teach so much completely useless mythology that they will never reference again). You can not completely ban the book from a literature classroom.
    You hit the nail on the head emunch.

    As I said, when I was in high school, some of the parents were angered by the blasphemy of us studing old testament stories in literature, and one kept her daughter out of class that day.

    The funny part was the reason she gave was that the story was not from the King James transation and therefore heresy.
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    The funny part was the reason she gave was that the story was not from the King James transation and therefore heresy.
    Taliban Hater
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    Taliban Hater
    The taliban is partial to the King James version?
  20. #120  
    Why do people consider the King James version of the bible superior? It's written in lovely poetic form but it's largely a rework of Tyndale's version. I've never heard anyone praising Tyndale's version in the same way.

    Here's a good trick to play when in a hotel, open up the Bible you find in the bedside cabinet and write in the front - "All the best, God". Impossible for the next person to take it seriously after they read that.
    Animo et Fide

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