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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Good point! And modern gene therapy will remove these barriers to true love...fathers will be able to marry daughters and sons will be able to get a girl just like dear old dad!

    And why should two people with compatible sex drives have to wait until some arbitrarily selected age before they have sex? Why, those poor young boys are just confused, and NAMBLA is there to help!

    Enough sarcasm. I note you didn't seriously address my points, so there is not reason to continue. I will say this, though. I'm old enough to remember the abortion debate in this country in 1973. Some raised concerns that abortion on demand would lead to assisted suicide. They were called old fashioned. What they were was prescient.
    Assisted suicide was another argument at the time, and didn't materialize because of abortion on demand, as you pointed out. It's no more related now than it was then. That reasoning is just flawed.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    Assisted suicide was another argument at the time, and didn't materialize because of abortion on demand, as you pointed out. It's no more related now than it was then. That reasoning is just flawed.
    Yes, 30 years later, and abortion is common place, and assisted suicide rare. It actually negates that argument.

    Surur
  3. #103  
    I note both of the above posters dodged my main points about declining standards. Not surprising...liberals will sooner or later have to confront the paradigm that if everything is right, then nothing is wrong. On the other hand, maybe every form of deviant behavior is accepatable to them?

    In 1973 assisted suicide was unthinkable. Do you really believe that 30 plus years of abortion hasn't moved that goal closer for some?
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    I note both of the above posters dodged my main points about declining standards. Not surprising...liberals will sooner or later have to confront the paradigm that if everything is right, then nothing is wrong. On the other hand, maybe every form of deviant behavior is accepatable to them?

    In 1973 assisted suicide was unthinkable. Do you really believe that 30 plus years of abortion hasn't moved that goal closer for some?
    I'm not a 'liberal', and to you, anything different to you is deviant. And your assisted suicide analogy is silly. They are two unrelated issues. One doesn't prove the other right or wrong. If someone believes in one, it does NOT follow that they necessarily believe in the other. Try another silly tact. This one is used up. You gain nothing dwelling on such ridiculous comparisons.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    I'm not a 'liberal', and to you, anything different to you is deviant. And your assisted suicide analogy is silly. They are two unrelated issues. One doesn't prove the other right or wrong. If someone believes in one, it does NOT follow that they necessarily believe in the other. Try another silly tact. This one is used up. You gain nothing dwelling on such ridiculous comparisons.
    You still dodge the main point, and that is "gay marriage" defines deviancy downward, then where is the bottom?

    Assisted suicide and abortion are not unreleated issues. They both deal with the value of human life. The comparison is only ridiculous to anyone that lacks the capacity to make it.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    You still dodge the main point, and that is "gay marriage" defines deviancy downward, then where is the bottom?

    Assisted suicide and abortion are not unreleated issues. They both deal with the value of human life. The comparison is only ridiculous to anyone that lacks the capacity to make it.
    I'm not dodging a point. No point is made to debate.

    • Gay marriage has nothing to do with defining deviancy, downward spirals, or bottoms. Bigots like you seem to like to dwell on all three, though.

    • Assisted suicide has nothing to do with gay marriage.

    • Abortion has nothing to do with gay marriage.


    Sinking in yet? (somehow I doubt it)

    That said, whats this all got to do with the price of tea in China?
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    I'm not dodging a point. No point is made to debate.

    • Gay marriage has nothing to do with defining deviancy, downward spirals, or bottoms. Bigots like you seem to like to dwell on all three, though.
    Would it not be safe to say that if you thought homosexuality is deviant, that allowing for gay marriage is defining it downward?

    Deviancy is whatever a society determines. If that society determines homosexuality as deviant, then gay marriage has everything to do with it.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Not surprising...liberals will sooner or later have to confront the paradigm that if everything is right, then nothing is wrong.
    Everything is not right. Imposing my beliefs on others or adversely affecting others is not right.
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  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Would it not be safe to say that if you thought homosexuality is deviant, that allowing for gay marriage is defining it downward?

    Deviancy is whatever a society determines. If that society determines homosexuality as deviant, then gay marriage has everything to do with it.
    Might makes right, and all that... society used to say the world was flat, that slaves were subhuman, that women were inferior... good ole society and their edicts
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    Might makes right, and all that... society used to say the world was flat, that slaves were subhuman, that women were inferior... good ole society and their edicts
    Used to say? In some parts of the world, other than the flat Earth thought, these things still prevail. Wahabiism certainly isn't known as a champion of womens rights. And slavery still exsists.


    But still it's society that adheres to this, as well as changes this.

    (Sorry to get off topic here...)
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  11. NRG
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    #111  
    Do any REAL mental health professionals care to weigh in?
  12. NRG
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    #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Interesting.

    You have unwittingly raised the issue that we have not discussed--autonomy of the states. There are some Alabamans that understand that those who marry in Massachusetts have legal precedence for demanding that their marriage be recognized in Alabama.
    Your statement is false. 1996 Defense of Marriage Act states that "States shall not be bound to recognize, same sex marriages recognized in foreign states." or some sh^t like that. And this whole thing really goes against republican values, which you mentioned "state rights". A constitutional amendment prohibits states from making their own decisions. Hence restricting state rights from a federal level.
  13. #113  
    To give an example, in UK abortion is legal, and more than 10 000 were performed last year. Gay marriage (in the form of civil union) is also legal. Assisted suicide is completely illegal, no matter how good your case is that dying would release you from intolerable suffering.

    Surur
  14. NRG
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    I note both of the above posters dodged my main points about declining standards. Not surprising...liberals will sooner or later have to confront the paradigm that if everything is right, then nothing is wrong. On the other hand, maybe every form of deviant behavior is acceptable to them?
    Most of what you say is subjective here, example, what would you classify as minuminally deviant, almost "acceptable"? My definition may be different than yours. Matter of perception, no?, and here we get a little farther off in to the grey area of philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    In 1973 assisted suicide was unthinkable. Do you really believe that 30 plus years of abortion hasn't moved that goal closer for some?
    I can guarantee that is was NOT unthinkable 30 years ago. If we could go back in time to the cancer suffers of the time, I bet we could find a few, who have dreamt of it.
  15. #115  
    tonight Bill Bennett and Jon Stewart had a fantastic gay marriage debate on The Daily Show

    (probably not up until tomorrow though)
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  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Everything is not right. Imposing my beliefs on others or adversely affecting others is not right.
    So you dont vote? You think the rich shouldn't be taxed? That people should be allowed to defecate in the streets?
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Would it not be safe to say that if you thought homosexuality is deviant, that allowing for gay marriage is defining it downward?
    "Deviant: deviating especially from an accepted norm." Doesn't mean up or down.

    E.g. interracial marriage is also deviant (not the norm), but still not a downward trend, at least not for me (for you neither, I suppose).
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    "Deviant: deviating especially from an accepted norm." Doesn't mean up or down.

    E.g. interracial marriage is also deviant (not the norm), but still not a downward trend, at least not for me (for you neither, I suppose).
    I think you're taking the phrase too literal. What I meant is that, assuming someone thinks homosexuality is deviant behavior, allowing for gay marriage could be viewed as "accepting" the behavior. The "Slippery Slope" arguement. If you were so inclined, you'd think the same about interracial marriage. The sky is falling!! We can't have this!! Of course, being the product of an Anglo/Japanese marriage, some here may think I have proved that interracial marriage is indeed a bad thing.

    No, it's not a downward trend, unless we all suddenly woke up gay, and stopped procreating. I'm just playing the Devils advocate. I personally don't care if someone wants to marry a goat. However, I can understand someones views against Gay marriage, even if I don't neccessarily have those same views.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    No, it's not a downward trend, unless we all suddenly woke up gay, and stopped procreating. I'm just playing the Devils advocate. I personally don't care if someone wants to marry a goat. However, I can understand someones views against Gay marriage, even if I don't neccessarily have those same views.
    I understand how they can have that view. However, why do they want to deny others? I don't like parakeets, but I wouldn't want a law banning you from having them.

    The slippery slope argument isn't valid. You could use that on every peice of legislation. When they repealed prohibition, that didn't make heroin legal. When they gave women the right to vote, they didn't extend it to children or pets.
    Last edited by gaffa; 06/07/2006 at 11:24 AM.
  20. #120  
    this all about procreation, right ???

    the reason the *** fearing righties give for opposing gay marriage is ultimately about making babies.

    Being neither a parent or gay, my primary fear is bad baby makers.

    I want homosapiens to prove that they intend and can support their offspring, and that they're capable and knowledgable enough to be a responsible baby maker, before they're allowed to reproduce.

    most of the planet's troubles originate with too many homosapiens -- badly raised dumb homo sapiens in particular
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