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  1.    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    So you really think that the leaders gave individuals the authority to shoot unarmed civilians? That is a lame excuse for pointing a finger at someone in charge that you disagree with. If this happened, the only ones responsible are those on the ground that did it.
    If we use your analogy, President Bush should be praised for every good deed and action that the military has accomplished while he has served as the Commander in Chief. He should be honored at parades on a daily basis, he should have a closet full of medals for valor.
    I prefer to see those that performed the action be praised or held accountable for the action, not someone else.
    I've been mulling this over Cardio.

    Of course anyone who did an evil act -- an act that they had to know was a war crime -- needs to be punished appropriately.

    Its much less clear to me as to what happened though in Abu Graib -- what the orders were, what hints and winks filtered down from above. I'm convinced that the highest levels of the civilian leadership (up to and including junior) knew of, and in general gave approval for whatever was happening there.

    The crime to them was not the torture -- it was the disclosure of that torture --- and the pictures of that torture in particular.

    Recall their weasel worded attempts to redefine torture, to explain that we were fighting non-uniformed insurgents, that the torture convention didnít apply. Their anger is always at the leak, not the acts.

    As it comes to responsibility, remember junior's inability to imagine that he'd made any mistakes, to acknowledge fault in himself. (it was only last week that he managed to confide that he spoke like an ss when he screamed "bring it on" -- casually swaggering with the brave lives of men he sent out to be at risk (something he was too much the coward to have done himself.)

    He and his regime (cheney, rumy, etc. etc. etc.) has never had to account for themselves, to take any real responsibility for the calamity that they have entangled us in. Maybe if thereís a change in congress some real investigations with the power to force the truth, to have the power of subpoena will finally bring forth some accountability.

    For the last six years what we have had is authority and responsibility without accountability.

    I donít know how we only hold accountable the men at the sharpest point of the spear when they should never have been placed into that horror to begin with.
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Clinton brought to Kosovo and Bosnia stability and peace -- an end to a bloody unforgivable slaughter.

    If that's not the "humanitarian victory that you portray" -- then what was it ???
    For one, its a denial of the atrocities that have been committed since. Not just in lives lost but in the persecution and displacement of tens of thousands of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    How many Bosnian, Kosovo, Croat, and Serb lives were lost prior to Clinton's intelligent intervention ??
    Well, if HRW is to be believed, 10,000-15,000 people.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    How many died after our intervention ???
    Hundreds, minimally. Probably into the thousands. But how many were lost in the conflict itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Again -- I need to ask this question every single day I am on this board -- how many american soldiers lost their lives bringing the slaughter to an end in Bosnia, how many in Kosovo ???
    Why? Because Clinton knew he would never get support in COngress for a ground war.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    You got the similarity thing right though, hoovs -- Clinton came to stop slaughter, a modern genocide -- to make a choatic place stable.

    junior came to a stable, relatively peaceful place and transformed it into a place of slaughter and chaos.

    Yup -- they did the same thing !!
    I've never said they did the same thing. You're the one who wants to draw comparisons. But compare this: Kosovo has a population of 1.2-1.5 million. Iraq: 28 million.

    Regarding Kosovo's genocide, roughly 10,000 ethnic Albanians were killed.

    Regarding Saddam's "peaceful place", just the campaigns against the Kurds alone cost roughly 182,000 lives. How many more Shi'a and other religious and ethnic minorities? The numbers seem to be growing, don't they?

    Regarding the peace in Kosovo, UNMIK forces are still getting attacked by angry villagers six years later. Of course, without the support of an international Islamic community and access to tons of unused munitions, those villagers have to settle with rocks. Meanwhile, the KLA and their supporters are exacting revenge by creating what many in the region are calling modern-day "pogroms".
    Last edited by hoovs; 06/02/2006 at 04:02 AM.
  3. cardio's Avatar
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I've been mulling this over Cardio.

    Of course anyone who did an evil act -- an act that they had to know was a war crime -- needs to be punished appropriately.

    Its much less clear to me as to what happened though in Abu Graib -- what the orders were, what hints and winks filtered down from above. I'm convinced that the highest levels of the civilian leadership (up to and including junior) knew of, and in general gave approval for whatever was happening there.

    The crime to them was not the torture -- it was the disclosure of that torture --- and the pictures of that torture in particular.

    Recall their weasel worded attempts to redefine torture, to explain that we were fighting non-uniformed insurgents, that the torture convention didnít apply. Their anger is always at the leak, not the acts.

    As it comes to responsibility, remember junior's inability to imagine that he'd made any mistakes, to acknowledge fault in himself. (it was only last week that he managed to confide that he spoke like an ss when he screamed "bring it on" -- casually swaggering with the brave lives of men he sent out to be at risk (something he was too much the coward to have done himself.)

    He and his regime (cheney, rumy, etc. etc. etc.) has never had to account for themselves, to take any real responsibility for the calamity that they have entangled us in. Maybe if thereís a change in congress some real investigations with the power to force the truth, to have the power of subpoena will finally bring forth some accountability.

    For the last six years what we have had is authority and responsibility without accountability.

    I donít know how we only hold accountable the men at the sharpest point of the spear when they should never have been placed into that horror to begin with.
    Barye, we are not talkoing about Abu Graib, a Drunk driver going off a bridge and killing an innocent woman, Bay of Pigs, or a stain on a dress. We were specifically speaking of the charge of murder by a group of individuals who happen to be in the military. The individuals and those who knew what happened and actively attempted to conceal it should and will be held accountable for their actions.
    Yes, leaders hold overall responsibility for the results of their units actions, however it in unrealistic to expect them to be held accountable for individual actions (good or bad). All types of individuals join the military for a wide variety of reasons, from sense of pride to need of job/education, the military provides the training and attempts to weed out those that do not adjust to the military way of life. One of the by-products of the peace years is a reduced military (men and equipment) and with this reduction meant a reduction in career soldiers who had the experience to train or weed out those that might cause problems. One of the biggest mistakes (in my opinon) was the programs that allowed members who had served 15 years to leave the military (basically an early retirement) and that void of experience was filled with individuals with very little maturity (still in the party stage of life) in the military. These are now the career soldiers that are leading a lot of our units, and they may not have the discipline instilled in them in their early leadership positions to draw on now when it is needed.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Barye, we are not talkoing about Abu Graib, a Drunk driver going off a bridge and killing an innocent woman, Bay of Pigs, or a stain on a dress. We were specifically speaking of the charge of murder by a group of individuals who happen to be in the military. The individuals and those who knew what happened and actively attempted to conceal it should and will be held accountable for their actions.
    Yes, leaders hold overall responsibility for the results of their units actions, however it in unrealistic to expect them to be held accountable for individual actions (good or bad). All types of individuals join the military for a wide variety of reasons, from sense of pride to need of job/education, the military provides the training and attempts to weed out those that do not adjust to the military way of life. One of the by-products of the peace years is a reduced military (men and equipment) and with this reduction meant a reduction in career soldiers who had the experience to train or weed out those that might cause problems. One of the biggest mistakes (in my opinon) was the programs that allowed members who had served 15 years to leave the military (basically an early retirement) and that void of experience was filled with individuals with very little maturity (still in the party stage of life) in the military. These are now the career soldiers that are leading a lot of our units, and they may not have the discipline instilled in them in their early leadership positions to draw on now when it is needed.
    Well put.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    ...
    I donít know how we only hold accountable the men at the sharpest point of the spear when they should never have been placed into that horror to begin with.
    I'm not sure I buy this whole line of reasoning. On the cusp of Memorial Day, anyone involved in the retaking of France in World War II will tell you that had we suffered through the current "mea culpa" culture and media hysteria, Roosevelt would have had to resign or be impeached within the first 10 days after Normandy. The loss of life and brute force tactics to get past those hedge rows make all the losses in Iraq pale by comparison.

    Our generation (post-WW II) will never be able to fully comprehend the sacrifice, honor, and context of that war. But you, like so many other Vietnam War generation adults, exercise reflexive logic daily in excoriating our current leaders and their policies. Why? Because as some of your other, more intelligible posts point out, war is a brutal beast, and often times the innocent suffer unjustly, but suffer nonetheless.

    I know many of you (Blazerboy, daThomas, etc.) see my reactions as savage and repulsive. Well, that's what war really is. Our failure in Vietnam, and what could be developing here, is not staying a failed course, but not carrying through with all the power and might necessary to achieve the objective. Not running down and destroying Saddam's army; failure to seal the border with Iran; those are our failures. Were we "mean" at Abu Grab - damn straight - and if it saves the lives of our service men, too bad. And don't give me the usual "we have to be better than them" because that does not work in a unilateral fashion with true savages that value NO HUMAN LIVES even their own.

    Our problem is conducting war like it was a police action; not in fighting a war to win and get out. Those brave young men at Normandy killed every German soldier they could, because it was either "them or us." It was far more brutal than any thing we've seen coming from Iraq, other than the beheading of hostages by our "noble" opponents.

    It's time to get over it. The "it" is this constant self-flagellation for our mistakes. General William T. "War is Hell" Sherman said it best: "War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." Unfortunately, it seems that only Al Qaeda understands this one.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  6.    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Barye, we are not talkoing about Abu Graib, a Drunk driver going off a bridge and killing an innocent woman, Bay of Pigs, or a stain on a dress. We were specifically speaking of the charge of murder by a group of individuals who happen to be in the military. The individuals and those who knew what happened and actively attempted to conceal it should and will be held accountable for their actions.
    Yes, leaders hold overall responsibility for the results of their units actions, however it in unrealistic to expect them to be held accountable for individual actions (good or bad). All types of individuals join the military for a wide variety of reasons, from sense of pride to need of job/education, the military provides the training and attempts to weed out those that do not adjust to the military way of life. One of the by-products of the peace years is a reduced military (men and equipment) and with this reduction meant a reduction in career soldiers who had the experience to train or weed out those that might cause problems. One of the biggest mistakes (in my opinon) was the programs that allowed members who had served 15 years to leave the military (basically an early retirement) and that void of experience was filled with individuals with very little maturity (still in the party stage of life) in the military. These are now the career soldiers that are leading a lot of our units, and they may not have the discipline instilled in them in their early leadership positions to draw on now when it is needed.
    war is a darwinian environment -- one which can eventually find the better leaders.

    During VietNam there were too many captains and 1st Lts.who were too smart to listen and learn from their men -- too many soldiers were killed and maimed as a result.

    Fragging became a teaching tool of neccesity, until officers stopped knowing everything and began to acknowledge their own ignorance.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  7.    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    ... Our failure in Vietnam, and what could be developing here, is not staying a failed course, but not carrying through with all the power and might necessary to achieve the objective...
    not much time today -- but I have to respond to that small point.

    Having been in Viet Nam recently I can tell you from direct personal experience that that country, and the lives that its people enjoy, can in no imaginable way justify the unforgivable sacrifice demanded of a generation of american and vietnamese kids.

    Saigon is as prosperous, and alive a city as any I've seen in asia (or the world). (I'll probably write about it some in that Cambodia thingy that I've begun to write.)

    I urge you to go there yourself when you can.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  8.    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    what are you saying ??? this is a link to a 30 min. newscast --
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