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  1. NRG
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    #21  
    I am going to chime in here. War ia not cute, warm nor fuzzy. The guys had lost one their own and from the sounds of it, they could have thought it was a RPG. All it would take for them to start firing is maybe someone darting behind the house, that looked like could be involved. Waht I am having a tough time understanding is the children. Did the marines go inside the house? I am going to wait till all the evidence is in, and hearings are performed, before I start making comparsions.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Pantano isn't really a shining example of noble conduct, even if he was not proven guilty.There doesn't seem to be any hope for exculpatory evidence. I am sure it would have been brought forward by now...
    Yeah...just like in the Duke "rape" case...
  3. #23  
    Interesting the locals won't allow autopsies.
    With the level of violence directed at civilians there is at least a possiblity that those people were killed by terrorists.

    The truth will out.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I am going to chime in here. War ia not cute, warm nor fuzzy. The guys had lost one their own and from the sounds of it, they could have thought it was a RPG. All it would take for them to start firing is maybe someone darting behind the house, that looked like could be involved. Waht I am having a tough time understanding is the children. Did the marines go inside the house? I am going to wait till all the evidence is in, and hearings are performed, before I start making comparsions.
    If there were taking fire from a house and launched a close assault they would first through grenades, then kick in doors and start shooting. Once they swept through the objective they would establish security, then search.
  5. #25  
    Mr. Murtha's Rush to Judgment
    A year ago I was charged with two counts of premeditated murder and with other war crimes related to my service in Iraq. My wife and mother sat in a Camp Lejeune courtroom for five days while prosecutors painted me as a monster; then autopsy evidence blew their case out of the water, and the Marine Corps dropped all charges against me ["Marine Officer Cleared in Killing of Two Iraqis," news story, May 27, 2005].

    So I know something about rushing to judgment, which is why I am so disturbed by the remarks of Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) regarding the Haditha incident ["Death Toll Rises in Haditha Attack, GOP Leader Says," news story, May 20]. Mr. Murtha said, "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...052700846.html
  6. TomUps's Avatar
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    #26  
    maybe to reenforce your opinion of armchair generals like me, here's something of what I wrote last year about the battle in Fallujah:
    not sure what your trying to prove here, but I will take a shot.
    1. People slaughtered, American troops attempt to respond with force.
    2. In your view they shouldnt have. You back this analysis up from views taken weeks or even months after the incident occured.
    3. You copied the story here, and are now an expert on urban warfare.


    Is this correct?
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Not enough troops? Blame the "Peace Dividend" of the Clinton years.
    With a worldwide commitment, the cupboard was too bare to send the level of forces that Bush I committed to Desert Storm. If we had sent more, North Korea may have been emboldened. Plus, if you commit the majority of the force, who relieves them in a year?
    the size of the force sent was the direct product of rumy's desire to prove his cheaper, faster, smaller strategy.

    This regimeís geniuses argued before congress that this war of their's would be as cheap and almost as cost free as iraq war one (paid for by the saudi's, kuwaitis, and Japanese etc.).

    This was to be a war that would not interfere with junior's "tax cutting for the rich path to super-prosperity, and uber-budget surpluses".

    There were generals that attempted to persuade "the great strategizer" that winning against a demoralized, ill-equipped, badly lead conventional army that had become a shadow of its former self was the easy part. Shinseki and others tried to inform this regime's geniuses that it was not the war that was hard and complicated -- it was making a successful peace after that war.

    Proof of their delusional beliefs is in their boastful arrogant speeches where they promised that weíll be greeted like liberators with rose petals on the streets, that this war will cost no more than 20 billion dollars -- and that the iraqi looters are just letting off a little steam...

    Clinton left a strong, ably lead force, that had become sophisticated in the application of force for peacemaking. Wesley Clark and other Generals learned the multiplicity of behaviors and training needed to successfully create peace in the Balkans, where there had been an endless savage war.

    And he did it without ANY american soldiers dying, without bankrupting this country, without destroying its armed forces...
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  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Mr. Murtha's Rush to Judgment
    A year ago I was charged with two counts of premeditated murder and with other war crimes related to my service in Iraq. My wife and mother sat in a Camp Lejeune courtroom for five days while prosecutors painted me as a monster; then autopsy evidence blew their case out of the water, and the Marine Corps dropped all charges against me ["Marine Officer Cleared in Killing of Two Iraqis," news story, May 27, 2005].

    So I know something about rushing to judgment, which is why I am so disturbed by the remarks of Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) regarding the Haditha incident ["Death Toll Rises in Haditha Attack, GOP Leader Says," news story, May 20]. Mr. Murtha said, "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...052700846.html
    having read the link I understand that its from a letter written by Lieutenant Ilario Pantano -- but I was initially confused because the attribution is indistinct -- I thought for a moment that you were referring to yourself ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    the size of the force sent was the direct product of rumy's desire to prove his cheaper, faster, smaller strategy.
    That's not quite true. If it were, they would have carpet bombed from 40,000 feet and been home in time for lunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Wesley Clark and other Generals learned the multiplicity of behaviors and training needed to successfully create peace in the Balkans, where there had been an endless savage war..
    Wesley Clark...was he Chief of the Army??...on the Joint Chiefs?? Nooo he was the Supreme Allied Commander Europe of NATO during the Kosovo conflict. Wait...dont we still have troops there
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  10. cardio's Avatar
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    #30  
    I would like to see this tried in the courts (military and/or civilian) and the parties be held responsible for their actions. Unfortunately, the media has completed their investigation and the public (for the most part) has handed down the verdict. We even have some so-called leaders (Murtha) calling them murderers before the investigation is completed.

    Those who seem to think that military and/or civilian leadership should be held responsible do not appear to have a grasp on reality. When was the last time a police chief or city mayor was held responsible for a bad cop or two who decided to beat a black man because he was black? Individuals should be held responsible for individual actions, not leaders you happen to disagree with. If that is the standard we are going to set, I guess I am in trouble since one of my employees got a DUI this weekend.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  11. #31  
    clairgrrl & cardio

    You are so on target on this one. It's NOT a question of responsibility, culpability, or even morality - it's just another pot shot at the administration. Some guy/gal in cubicle 1407 stole three paper clips, and Rumsfeld should be fired for the "theft" and Bush should be impeached for failure to fire Rumsfeld.

    I dare say there has never been another period in our 200+ year history where a President has been so universally vilified by the opposition that they cannot see a thing beyond their hatred. Unfortunately, it's the guy and gals in the middle in Iraq that get skewered in the process. If I hear another shrill voice proclaiming "I support the troops but not the mission..." I'll implode.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    ...If I hear another shrill voice proclaiming "I support the troops but not the mission..." I'll implode.
    allow me to be the first to test your hypothesis:

    I support the troops but not the mission... !!!

    (fire in the HOLE !!!!)

    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    not sure what your trying to prove here, but I will take a shot.
    1. People slaughtered, American troops attempt to respond with force.
    2. In your view they shouldnt have. You back this analysis up from views taken weeks or even months after the incident occurred.
    That text was what I wrote last year -- it encapsulates much of what I was trying to say about the inherent brutality and savagery that is asymmetric warfare.

    I felt this way from the moment the Blackwater massacre happened -- before the first Falujah fiasco.

    The on scene Marine commanders recognized this danger and attempted to resist the demands from this regime's geniuses to go in and punish the terrorists (which is what the terrorists had always wanted to happen.)

    I felt that way when it was announced that we would begin to take an active role on behalf of the Christian forces in Lebanon well before the Marine barracks tragedy. (I was present at the State Dept. press briefing that day btw). Rumy was an important advisor to that team -- he would later meet with Sadamm on Reaganís behalf to offer Sadamm assistance.

    3. You copied the story here, and are now an expert on urban warfare.

    Is this correct?
    If I post something here I wrote it, and its usually an idea that originated with me.

    If not, I attempt to clearly distinguish that its something which came from somewhere else...
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    ...I was present at the State Dept. press briefing that day btw. Rumy was an important advisor to that team -- he would later meet with Sadamm on Reaganís behalf to offer Sadamm assistance.
    and you obviously weren't an important advisor
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I would like to see this tried in the courts (military and/or civilian) and the parties be held responsible for their actions. Unfortunately, the media has completed their investigation and the public (for the most part) has handed down the verdict. We even have some so-called leaders (Murtha) calling them murderers before the investigation is completed.

    Those who seem to think that military and/or civilian leadership should be held responsible do not appear to have a grasp on reality. When was the last time a police chief or city mayor was held responsible for a bad cop or two who decided to beat a black man because he was black? Individuals should be held responsible for individual actions, not leaders you happen to disagree with. If that is the standard we are going to set, I guess I am in trouble since one of my employees got a DUI this weekend.
    Cardio, I think you're being too forgiving of yourself for the DUI of your employees.

    The truth is that junior, rumy, and friends are responsible for the mission for which these boys were sent.

    They are responsible for the terms of engagement, the objectives, and the implements with which they could both defend themselves and assist the people they were expected to help.

    That team is also responsible for the Abu Ghraib fiasco by the terms they set for interrogation, and the people they appointed to places of responsibility.

    Authority, responsibility, and accountability come from the top -- not from the bottom.

    I was not going to use this Oliphant -- but you've made me do it!!

    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    and you obviously weren't an important advisor
    I'm not even an important advisor to my tomato plants
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I'm not even an important advisor to my tomato plants
    We know
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Clinton left a strong, ably lead force, that had become sophisticated in the application of force for peacemaking. Wesley Clark and other Generals learned the multiplicity of behaviors and training needed to successfully create peace in the Balkans, where there had been an endless savage war.

    And he did it without ANY american soldiers dying, without bankrupting this country, without destroying its armed forces...
    You're talking about it as if it was some sort of victory for world or even regional stability. If so, how many Serb lives, homes and churches need to be destroyed in order for that region to be considered unstable?
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    I dare say there has never been another period in our 200+ year history where a President has been so universally vilified by the opposition that they cannot see a thing beyond their hatred.
    Bill Clinton?
    --
    Aloke
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  20. #40  
    Oh Aprasad...

    Clinton was not universally villified by the opposition. He was villified only for getting his knob polished under the Oval Office desk and not sharing his new found polisher.

    And I think for trying to desexualize knob polishing...

    You may remember....."I did not have sex with that woman" and...."it depends on what the meaning of is, is"

    Chuck....
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