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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Granting???? LOL Thats a good one! Did it ever occur to you that one day Americans may be "granting" mexican independance in much the same fashion?
    By agreeing to fight against the british on behalf of Mexico in return for helping France to take back the straits of Gebraltar?
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    lol, shhhhhhh

    By the way, what did we promise the French in return for them granting us our independence?
    You mean sign our independence over to them?

    When the (American Revolution) war was over, the great problem remained to conclude the peace. The French politicians determined to make the American alliance turn in every way to their own advantage. When the news of the alliance was made in early Spring, May 1778, brought much cheer and new faith to the officers and men alike ........

    Now the war was over and there were those in power who thought they could use Franklin, the American alliance and the United States to their own advantage. The French politicians were opposed to a separate peace treaty for the United States, but they proposed to have a treaty in which American independence and sovereignty would be tied directly to the French treaty. And then they could hold the United States under their own direction.

    Franklin knew French politicians too well, and he resolved such conditions should not result. Franklin was courageous, bold and had a definite sense of vision plans in diplomacy. consequently, he met the leaders of the British commission and secured a separate treaty with them. He secured just what he wanted for his country; namely, the absolute independence of the United States, recognition of it as a distinctive government, and at the same time the exact boundaries of the United States were generally established. Some of the American members were fearful lest all plans should be ruined, but not so Franklin.

    The French commission was furious and spoke unkindly to Franklin. Again undaunted, he met them and convinced them they could not hold the United States to their own plans; and thus he succeeded.

    http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge.../franklin.html
  3. #103  
    hmm, and yet we signed it

    just to help them out i bet right?

    but you skipped the part about what we exactly promised them in exchange for defeating the Brits
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    By agreeing to fight against the british on behalf of Mexico in return for helping France to take back the straits of Gebraltar?
    I believe his is referring to Spain Joining the France England War. Spain asked Britain for Gibraltar as a reward for joining the war on the British side. When Britain refused, Spain joined with France in its war against Britain....although refusing to recognize American War of Independence.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    hmm, and yet we signed it

    just to help them out i bet right?

    but you skipped the part about what we exactly promised them in exchange for defeating the Brits
    Signed what, the Preliminary Articles of Peace in 1783 or the Paris Peace Treaty in that same year, or the Treaty with France in 1778?

    Since you have not stated what you are continually hinting at. Since you didn't provide any links.....what do you think we promised and did not give to France?

    I know that when France and America formed an alliance, negotiated by Benjamin Franklin, France would agree to help fight in American Revolution....with a great deal of self interest of actually getting a chance to fight against England.....and America would be obligated to stand by France if war should occur between France and England. Within four months, France and Great Britain were at war. It has also been documented that France did have selfish motives, including hoping to seize a chunk of land that they lost to the Brits a long time ago, but never acknowledged this at the time.

    In fact the Treaty Signed by Ben Franklin with France said France wanted NOTHING in return for their aid:

    On Friday the 6th of February, 1778, plenipotentiaries met in Paris to sign a treaty for which there had been no precedent in history, and of which there has been no imitation since..........

    Article II of the treaty provided that "the essential and direct end of the present defensive alliance is to maintain effectually the liberty, sovereignty and independence absolute and unlimited of the said United States." By other articles France pledged herself not to lay down her arms until this independence had been achieved, and, whatever be the delay, cost, or losses, to neither claim nor accept anything for the help thus provided. She even specifically consented that the harshest of the conditions of the 1763 treaty of peace with England be maintained: if conquests were made " in the northern part of America," the conquered land would be annexed to the United States, and not to the country which had settled Canada and possessed it until that peace.

    A treaty of commerce had been signed on the same day, and in the same spirit, France reserving for herself no advantage but subscribing an agreement to which any nation, England included, would be welcome to be a party when it chose. France, wrote Franklin, has "taken no advantage of our present difficulties to exact terms which we would not willingly grant when established in prosperity and power." France, grumbled Mr. de Floridablanca, prime minister of Spain, when the treaties were read to him, "is acting like Don Quixote."

    The treaties signed on the 6th of February, 1778, were certainly unprecedented. So much so that, in some minds, and for a long time (in that of John Adams, for example, to the last), doubts remained. Was that really possible? Were there no secret articles? No, there were none.

    http://www.americanrevolution.org/frintro.html
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I believe his is referring to Spain Joining the France England War. Spain asked Britain for Gibraltar as a reward for joining the war on the British side. When Britain refused, Spain joined with France in its war against Britain....although refusing to recognize American War of Independence.
    It has been a while since my freshman American History class at Michigan State. Our nation's very first treaty was our very first subject. The Treaty of Alliance with France, which said that in return for France helping us to win our independence, we would not make peace with England until France had concluded it's dispute(s) with england as well.

    As soon as the redcoats were gone, so was our war with England, and our treaty with France.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Since you have not stated what you are continually hinting at. Since you didn't provide any links.....
    hobbes, you really need to get out of that mounatin cabin once in a while

    heres your link

    http://www.historicaldocuments.com/T...withFrance.htm
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    It has been a while since my freshman American History class at Michigan State. Our nation's very first treaty was our very first subject. The Treaty of Alliance with France, which said that in return for France helping us to win our independence, we would not make peace with England until France had concluded it's dispute(s) with england as well.

    As soon as the redcoats were gone, so was our war with England, and our treaty with France.
    Oh....so, their reversal of their intent to gain land out of the deal and to subject the US under their rule (either by treaty, economically, or by commerce) didn't have any play in it? It was a two way street. I thought I addressed this in the previous post #102 & #105.

    Yes the French were mad that we signed a separate Treaty with England because that meant they had no power over controlling the US.

    And BTW, I had that same link to the treaty, I guess this time I should have posted it.....I never know how to debate with you....at one time you express extreme frustration with too many cites, and the next that I didn't share enough.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/15/2006 at 01:33 PM.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Yes the French were mad that we signed a seperate Treaty with England because that meant they had no power over controlling the US.
    right, not because we just broke the first treaty we ever signed
  10. #110  
    Again, because of the paragraph before the one you quoted.
  11. #111  
    jeez you guys got this all over me -- I was only a petit garcon of 9 back then -- I remember none of this ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    lol, shhhhhhh

    By the way, what did we promise the French in return for them granting us our independence?
    Uhmmmmmm ....we promised to buy their toast and fried potatoes ?
  13.    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    lol, shhhhhhh

    By the way, what did we promise the French in return for them granting us our independence?
    I just couldn't let this one go by. Since when did the french "grant" us our independence?
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    I just couldn't let this one go by. Since when did the french "grant" us our independence?
    Well let's see.

    We were fighting Great Britian's Friggates with squirrell rifles until we made an alliance with France, who promptly turned the war around, resulting in a new nation.

    Use whichever word you like. Granted, won, secured, acquired, obtained, liberated (you conservatives seem like that one), established... take your pick.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Uhmmmmmm ....we promised to buy their toast and fried potatoes ?
    lol, yes of course both staples of the French culture, along with their kissing
  16.    #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    lol, yes of course both staples of the French culture, along with their kissing
    Yes, they do have a lot of experienc at kissing a$$, don't they.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Well let's see.

    We were fighting Great Britian's Friggates with squirrell rifles until we made an alliance with France, who promptly turned the war around, resulting in a new nation.

    Use whichever word you like. Granted, won, secured, acquired, obtained, liberated (you conservatives seem like that one), established... take your pick.
    I don't think anyone is denying that the aid provided by France came at a critical point and was a pivotal point in American Revolution. But they offered that support with it spelled out that they did not want any compensation. Then they turned around to get compensation after the fact, against the the outlines of the treaty signed which offered aid from them.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I don't think anyone is denying that the aid provided by France came at a critical point and was a pivotal point in American Revolution. But they offerred that support with it spelled out that they did not want any compensation. Then they turned around to get compensation after the fact, against the the outlines of the treaty signed which offered aid from them.
    let's not forget hobbes, that their support for the american revolution bankrupted them -- which of course lead to the collapse of their economy, the fall of their monarchry, and ultimately to my glorious reign...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes
    ...they offered that support with it spelled out that they did not want any compensation.
    No, the Treaty of Alliance with France (1778) spelled out exactly what you might expect a treaty to spell out, which is that both sides help each other to defeat common enemies, unless and until both sides decide to dissolve the treaty.

    After we got what we wanted and needed from the French, I dont remember us helping them to get what they want and need.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    let's not forget hobbes, that their support for the american revolution bankrupted them -- which of course lead to the collapse of their economy, the fall of their monarchry, and ultimately to my glorious reign...
    Yup....but they did so on their own free will. They had alternative motives at play (which I noted above) and Ben Franklin was savvy enough to recognize that. The French wanted a jab at England without hopefully going to all out war with England.....which they did 4 months later....which is also a major factor to their economic standing at the time and the subsequent French Revolution.

    They also signed a treaty giving everything to the US after the Revolution including all lands to the US after the Revolution, but then attempted or at least was motivated to try to get some of their old claims back that the English took from them. They also wanted the US to be an all but a puppet state for them. Again, for these reasons is why we signed the final treaty directly with England, because the US did not want to become subject to yet another ruler after gaining independence from the other one. This is also why the French were so mad, because this dashed all their hopes of controlling the US for their own interest.
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