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  1. #81  
    Why do they always pull the "bigot" card? It reminds of the little snot nose brat that would pick a fight and then run to his house and stick his tongue out then slam the door just before you could kick his A**

    Oh wait! There I go answering my own questions again...
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    FYI - I've lived mostly in CA and NY and have worked closely with the agri industry while in CA - so much for your dumb "guess".
    Ahh now I get it! You benifit from the illegal immigrants not necessarily the american economy in general.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    you hobbes, may "elude" the facts, I prefer to refer...
    Some here have such a hard time with facts, I try to soften the blow whenever possible.
  4. cardio's Avatar
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    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    many illegals recieve foodstamps,and other public assistance, in addition using emergecy rooms for even routine care
    Barye, don't you find it kinda scary that we are on the same page on this issue?
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Barye, don't you find it kinda scary that we are on the same page on this issue?
    I think there's hope for him yet
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    I think there's hope for him yet
    Who ever thought that participating at a cell phone forum could have the potential to better your view of life for years to come!
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Who ever thought that participating at a cell phone forum could have the potential to better your view of life for years to come!
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    For those who may not be following the other thread talking a lot about the same topics......here are my thoughts of cost of illegal immigrants vs economic benefits:

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...9&postcount=18

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...6&postcount=73

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...0&postcount=75

    Barye the numbers you eluded to are in these links above.
    Hobbes
    I did read through the links you provided (thanks btw!) but still have problems with them. Most of them (with the one exception quoted below) have selectively only focused on the total costs (and have not referenced the source of their numbers - but that is ok I can always dig them up) and have not discussed the contributions. So what really needs to be discussed are the net costs - and this does not even need to include the net economic benefits from increased business. A good example from one of the links you provided:

    IMMIGRANTS' IMPACT


    Estimated financial impact of illegal immigrants on Mississippi. Lost sales tax revenue is the result of money sent to home countries and not spent in-state.

    Estimated population 49,000
    TOTAL Contributions to state $44.2 million
    Sales taxes paid $40.8 million
    Income taxes paid $3.4 million

    TOTAL Costs on taxpayers $69.3 million
    Education costs $23.7 million
    Health-care costs $35 million
    Public safety costs $237,360
    Lost sales tax revenue $10.3 million
    Source: Office of State Auditor
    This shows a net cost to the state of MS of $25MM - which is less than the total cost of $69 MM spent on illegal immigrants. And this does not even include the economic contributions that these immigrants made in helping businesses reopen (after Katrina).

    Most of the other cites you have mention only the total costs not the net cost to the state.

    EDIT: rechecked the numbers and made the table a bit clearer

    BTW - it's nice to be able to exercise the "ignore" privilege to deal with ignorami!
    Last edited by chillig35; 05/12/2006 at 02:07 PM.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Barye, don't you find it kinda scary that we are on the same page on this issue?
    terrifying ...

    actually the immigration issue is one that has always scrambled orthodox political alignments.

    Its always been an "elites" versus the people phenomenon

    To make more stark our differences -- the current hispanicization crisis begins with Raygun's war on central america -- which drove desperate peasants from their villages and farms in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Nicaragua.

    Those were political refugees -- but they were also economic migrants.

    My leftist brethren supported their flight here -- understanding the horrors that drove them from their homes. (I was always uncomfortable with this -- and from the beginning was wary of a long term flood.)

    junior's daddy (I forgot the year -- 1990 ?? can't research it now) granted them long term refugee status. This truly began the deluge, as fathers invited sons and wifes, friends and neighbors -- until as is written about in the article I posted earlier, whole villages are relocated to our country.

    The nature of cross border migration between land connected 1st and third world societies is an inherently unstable and unhealthy one -- one that potentially hurts them both.

    The migrants "elite" support has come from both sides of the political spectrum.

    The migrants have had the support of the factory owners, construction contractors, restaurants, and janitorial cleaning service companies -- who have benefitted from it.

    But they have also been supported by those parts of our society not directly hurt by it -- intellectual and political elites (republican and democratic) as well as by journalists and commentators.

    Liberal groups on humitarian grounds, also support them as well -- for slightly more complex reasons ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 05/12/2006 at 02:03 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    I think there's hope for him yet
    hey -- don't try to make me look bad
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    Hobbes
    I did read through the links you provided (thanks btw!) but still have problems with them. Most of them (with the one exception quoted below) have selectively only focused on the total costs (and have not referenced the source of their numbers - but that is ok I can always dig them up) and have not discussed the contributions. So what really needs to be discussed are the net costs - and this does not even need to include the net economic benefits from increased business. A good example from one of the links you provided:

    This shows a net cost to the state of MS of $25MM - which is less than the total cost of $69 MM spent on illegal immigrants. And this does not even include the economic contributions that these immigrants made in helping businesses reopen (after Katrina).

    Most of the other cites you have mention only the total costs not the net cost to the state.

    EDIT: rechecked the numbers and made the table a bit clearer

    BTW - it's nice to be able to exercise the "ignore" privilege to deal with ignorami!
    Actually that is why I cited the first and last links in my second posting of cites as they looked at the balance of costs. Depending on the focus or state the balance of contributions (taxes collected, cheap labor, etc..) of illegal aliens vs the social cost ranges from $10 - $25 Billion on the cost side of the scale vs the benefits.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Actually that is why I cited the first and last links in my second posting of cites as they looked at the balance of costs. Depending on the focus or state the balance of contributions (taxes collected, cheap labor, etc..) of illegal aliens vs the social cost ranges from $10 - $25 Billion on the cost side of the scale vs the benefits.
    sorry Hobbes - still no good - both those articles refer to the same "report" from the FAIR organization - which I looked at and seems to be driven by a partisan agenda. That's why the only article I found credible was the report on the MS state auditor's findings. Of course it's understandable that it's hard to find unbiased data on a state like California since it is a far larger state (revenues, population etc.) and is a lot more complex to dissect out these various issues.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Actually that is why I cited the first and last links in my second posting of cites as they looked at the balance of costs. Depending on the focus or state the balance of contributions (taxes collected, cheap labor, etc..) of illegal aliens vs the social cost ranges from $10 - $25 Billion on the cost side of the scale vs the benefits.
    For God's sake, you're never going to surf around gleaning information from right-wing, anti-immigrant websites, and calling it research, long enough to give you a difinitive answer as to the exact economic impact of amnesty, arresting, deporting, rounding up, or otherwise persecuting or rewarding the 12 million undocumented workers in America. Period.
  14. #94  
    Blaze I didn't realize you classified The Washington Times, City Journal, KPHO Channel 5 News in Phoenix AZ, NPR, The Clarion Ledger, and the traditionally left leaning Register Guard as "right-wing, anti-immigrant websites" that have not done their research. Period.

    Or do you????????
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    sorry Hobbes - still no good - both those articles refer to the same "report" from the FAIR organization - which I looked at and seems to be driven by a partisan agenda. That's why the only article I found credible was the report on the MS state auditor's findings. Of course it's understandable that it's hard to find unbiased data on a state like California since it is a far larger state (revenues, population etc.) and is a lot more complex to dissect out these various issues.
    I agree that a lot of the costs are based the FAIR report as there really is not not any others to go off of. But like the last one did try to bring that data into the reality of comparing again the the benefits of cheap labor vs the social cost. Again, I am open to any other sources that tries to take all of these aspects into account, but as you said they are far and between. These numbers may not be all encompassing of every aspect of the information but they are certainly part of the puzzle that must fit into the solution.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Blaze I didn't realize you classified The Washington Times, City Journal, KPHO Channel 5 News in Phoenix AZ, NPR, The Clarion Ledger, and the traditionally left leaning Register Guard as "right-wing, anti-immigrant websites" that have not done their research. Period.

    Or do you????????
    It's your pseudo intellectual web surfing that is not research, and you know very well it wasn't the Washington Times that has been called in to question.
  17. #97  
    But if every other country took that position historically there would be no US of A. For example, in 1776, w/o the French, we lose.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    But if every other country took that position historically there would be no US of A. For example, in 1776, w/o the French, we lose.
    lol, shhhhhhh

    By the way, what did we promise the French in return for them granting us our independence?
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    It's your pseudo intellectual web surfing that is not research, and you know very well it wasn't the Washington Times that has been called in to question.
    No I don't know that as in second post of links those are the only ones sources I used.....and that is the post that Chill and I are discussing. So, are you saying the links in the second post of Links are valid or not?
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    lol, shhhhhhh

    By the way, what did we promise the French in return for them granting us our independence?
    Granting???? LOL Thats a good one! Did it ever occur to you that one day Americans may be "granting" mexican independance in much the same fashion?
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