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  1. #61  
    A financial factor missed in only reviewing wage impact is social security. A pyramid scheme such as social security only works if we keep getting new people to pay into it.

    Paying "under the table" deprives the system of the "new meat" it requires.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    A financial factor missed in only reviewing wage impact is social security. A pyramid scheme such as social security only works if we keep getting new people to pay into it.

    Paying "under the table" deprives the system of the "new meat" it requires.
    and why would that matter? These illegals would not get the SS payout at the end anyway?
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  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    and why would that matter? These illegals would not get the SS payout at the end anyway?
    lol
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Yeah, I don't know why there's not more of an outrage in the larger community either. But being in the business I certainly hear an outrage when I'm at work.
    I don't hear people complaining about how cheap their IT products or services are either - in fact if anything it's the opposite - they expect the prices to go down further. Remember nothing came out of the "Buy American" campaign during the anti-Japanese hysteria. Most of us still buy Japanese autos whereas American auto companies are struggling to stay afloat and laying off thousands of workers.
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  5. #65  
    couple things (maybe already addressed?) -- the total cost of a giant class of socially incompatible immigrants is huge on a multiplicity of levels.

    Hospital emergency rooms are being overwhelmed, national bilinquism has become required,and the costs to towns and cities needing to attempt to educate the very large numbers of children produced by these immigrants.

    Less educated americans have been displaced from oppurtunities in good jobs like construction. As was said earlier by hoovs and cardio, the main benficiaries are greedy employers (great examples being the companies that junior encouraged to come to repair his Katrina catastrophe by exempting them from the law requiring them to pay the prevailing wage on Federal contracts. Those companies hired legions of illegal migrants, but did not lower their bill to FEMA.)

    There's also the cost to the societies left behind -- Mexican and Salvadorian societies have been hurt as well in this process.

    Vibrant Village Quieted As Salvadorans Go North
    Migrants to U.S, Including D.C. Area, Support Children, Elderly Left Back Home

    By N.C. Aizenman
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Monday, May 8, 2006; A01

    PIEDRAS BLANCAS, El Salvador -- It was just past noon, yet the only sign of life in the main square of this remote eastern village was an elderly man swinging in a hammock on his porch.

    There was a time, Jose Nieve-Reyes Rubio, 70, explained in a gravelly voice, when the plaza would have been packed with vendors and customers by this hour, their shouts ringing through the air as they bought and sold food, clothing and every imaginable kind of trinket.

    "But that was more than 10 years ago," he said as he settled back into his hammock. "Before everyone left for the States."

    Today, like villages across El Salvador, Piedras Blancas has been nearly emptied of its working-age inhabitants. Left behind are children and grandparents who live on money that relatives send from such previously unheard of places as "Manassas, Virginia," "Houston, Texas," and simply "Maryland" -- the catchall term by which people here refer to a host of Washington area suburbs.

    ....estimates that more than 3,500 Piedras Blancas natives, or about 40 percent of the population, live in the United States....
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  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    the economic impact of migrants is actually slightly positive though it is overstated.

    To take the example you have further ...

    the employer makes more money by underpaying migrant workers and as a result he passes on his savings to you in the form of a cheaper product/service. You save money and spend in on more goods which in turn leads to greater employment (of more migrants perhaps) and so on. Of course along the way - those businesses also pay more taxes (on higher profit margins) and at least they stay open and don't move their factories to another country. Also most migrant workers tend to have a higher savings rate - and this also good for the economy.

    So the loss of tax revenue from the pathetic wages that the migrants make is more than offset by the tax revenues from the business owners - at least that is the argument in principle. But in reality it seems to be a wash or only slightly positive (most of my cites are unfortunately paid journals)

    Perhaps another way to discourage hiring of illegal immigrants is to raise the minimum wage from its 1997 levels?
    Most of these illegal immigrants are working in the construction industry and they DO NOT work for free or even "pathetic" wages.

    As for the factory workers perhaps they are worked hard for little pay- its a skilless job!! When I was younger and had my first factory job it was horrible, hard, always running busy work and I made minumum wage! Here comes the shocking part.... I'm white and was born right here in the USA
    Even if you buy into the fact they are paid pathetically but "hey at least it keeps the factory here" If they only employ mexican immigrants for "pathetic" wages, I truly would rather they set up shop in mexico. They are of no more value here than they are there, and at least then their employee's would be earning money in there own economy instead of milking ours.

    How would raising the minimum wage discourage hiring illegals? Is it that their self esteem is so low that they simply just wont apply for a job that pays so much money???

    "So the loss of tax revenue from the pathetic wages that the migrants make is more than offset by the tax revenues from the business owners - at least that is the argument in principle."
    I assume you mean this to be a liberal argument since they are the ones that would remove our borders. Isnt this also one of their biggest complaints about the Right? "The rich get richer while the poor get poorer" ??? Is that concept somehow "OK" now that were talking about the mexican population? Perhaps you feel that by exploiting them there's a possibility of boosting the middle class? Sounds a little racist if you ask me. In fact the working conditions and exploitation of the mexican population that you imply isn't really that far from slavery, but you propose it as "OK" simply because they migrate of their own will.
    Last edited by sxtg; 05/12/2006 at 09:51 AM.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    and why would that matter? These illegals would not get the SS payout at the end anyway?
    Even if they are eventually given legal status? Im sure the libs will put something together for them.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    First of all most of these illegal immigrants are working in the construction industry and they DO NOT work for free or even "pathetic" wages.
    What I wrote was that Migrants DISPLACE less educated americans from opportunities in good jobs like construction. The migrants are paid for jobs that otherwise would be filled by americans. The contractor hires the illegals because they will work harder for less.
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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    What I wrote was that Migrants DISPLACE less educated americans from opportunities in good jobs like construction. The migrants are paid for jobs that otherwise would be filled by americans. The contractor hires the illegals because they will work harder for less.
    I wasn't quoting you. In fact this thread is one of the few that I have agreed with your comments

    Having said that, I will tell you that contractors hire them because they work hard and fast enabling them to take on more contracts. As far as the wages they're paid, its a matter of supply and demand. In my experience, the mexican workers expect the same rate of pay as the american workers and most jobs pay by the job meaning that they directly benefit from their fast hard work.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    I wasn't quoting you. In fact this thread is one of the few that I have agreed with your comments

    Having said that, I will tell you that contractors hire them because they work hard and fast enabling them to take on more contracts. As far as the wages they're paid, its a matter of supply and demand. In my experience, the mexican workers expect the same rate of pay as the american workers and most jobs pay by the job meaning that they directly benefit from their fast hard work.
    cool --

    supply and demand is the key dynamic -- for any product, commodity, or service.

    When there's greater competition amongst workers for available jobs, their security and wages are undercut.

    (the only workers not endangered from being outsourced or displaced by an illegal migrant are politicians ...)
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  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Most of these illegal immigrants are working in the construction industry and they DO NOT work for free or even "pathetic" wages.
    I never said free - so don't put words in my mouth. Another thing cite before you make a blanket statement - and please not from wothless partisan blogs or policy wonks like CIS! I have data (see academic citations below) that says most migrants workers work in factories (typically food-processing factories such as meat packing plants) as farm workers, as day laborers, service industries (janitorial, household etc.). Most of them are paid minimum wage -and they do not seem to attract native or legal workers.

    As for the factory workers perhaps they are worked hard for little pay- its a skilless job!! When I was younger and had my first factory job it was horrible, hard, always running busy work and I made minumum wage!
    the horror! But I suppose you didn't work for free or considered the minimum wage pathetic did you?

    How would raising the minimum wage discourage hiring illegals? Is it that their self esteem is so low that they simply just wont apply for a job that pays so much money???
    No - you just answered your own question above - you and other "white americans" like you would actually consider working those jobs if the pay was better than the current pathetic minimum wage

    "So the loss of tax revenue from the pathetic wages that the migrants make is more than offset by the tax revenues from the business owners - at least that is the argument in principle."
    I assume you mean this to be a liberal argument since they are the ones that would remove our borders. Isnt this also one of their biggest complaints about the Right?
    again you're putting words in my mouth - I despise both extreme ends of the political spectrum equally (heck I despise both parties altogether!). All I'm saying is that is this driven by market forces - businesses try to provide the products/services at the lowest cost since this maximizes their profit and also provides them a competitive edge. Whether they hire illegal immigrants who'll work at pathetic wages or build factories in underdeveloped countries where they can pay even more pathetic wages or just outsource altogether - they will do what it takes to be competitive and make money.

    I don't care about the liberal rhetoric about "caring" for the illegals - but neither do I buy the right wing crap about how they are "hurting" our economy or taking our jobs away.

    All immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are here for one reason only - economics - they see an opportunity for a better life than where they are at. That is the history of our country - waves of mostly poor immigrants coming so seek a better life. And all these prior immigrants (irish, jews, poles, italians and so on) have formed the bedrock of our "native" community today - and are productive members of society. The challenge with the current immigration issue is how keep that same momentum and enterpreneurial spirit alive without resorting to empty rhetoric.

    Links:
    http://www.nber.org/books/mexico/borjas-katz4-23-06.pdf

    http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/...ggregate_6.pdf

    http://www.nber.org/papers/w11547
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Even if they are eventually given legal status? Im sure the libs will put something together for them.
    your SS benefits are proportional to what you put in - so if they become legal and start contributing - who cares then?
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  13. #73  
    To be honest I have no interest in reading any of your cites. ANY cite claiming to document undocumented immigrants is at best comical.

    Your data only computes people that work in factories where wages are somewhat more traceable. Do you really think its even remotely possible to track under the table construction jobs? I'm no scholar but I would venture to guess that might be why these jobs are not factored when putting the data together.

    Not only that but I can also tell you that "documents" can be obtained from just about any mexican grocery store for about $50. Would these #'s then be computed when looking at the wage and job status of "undocumented immigrants" probably not, there wouldn't be an easy way to filter them nor would it further the cause these reports are trying to perpetuate.

    Can I ask where you live? My guess would be that its no where near the mexican borders. My comments come from real world experience, and I don't need some cite to explain the effects for me.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    your SS benefits are proportional to what you put in - so if they become legal and start contributing - who cares then?
    This assumes that they would be reinbursed proportionately, and that there wouldn't be an icreased rate of vesting to compensate for the unfair wages these poor little guys were subject to for so many years.


    You do realize that most of them don't even want citizenship, and the more "rights" they can obtain without it, the happier they are.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    To be honest I have no interest in reading any of your cites. ANY cite claiming to document undocumented immigrants is at best comical.

    Your data only computes people that work in factories where wages are somewhat more traceable. Do you really think its even remotely possible to track under the table construction jobs? I'm no scholar but I would venture to guess that might be why these jobs are not factored when putting the data together.

    Not only that but I can also tell you that "documents" can be obtained from just about any mexican grocery store for about $50. Would these #'s then be computed when looking at the wage and job status of "undocumented immigrants" probably not, there wouldn't be an easy way to filter them nor would it further the cause these reports are trying to perpetuate.

    Can I ask where you live? My guess would be that its no where near the mexican borders. My comments come from real world experience, and I don't need some cite to explain the effects for me.
    Ah! the classic close-minded bigot who knows everything (from personal experience no less!) and disbelieves anything that is data driven. And of course you also engage in ad hominem attacks on me personally without even knowing me. You, sir, are a pathetic loser.

    FYI - I've lived mostly in CA and NY and have worked closely with the agri industry while in CA - so much for your dumb "guess".
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    and why would that matter? These illegals would not get the SS payout at the end anyway?
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    lol
    Because the jobs that are taken by Illegal Aliens that are being paid under the table is replacing that position from a legal immigrant or natural American that would be paing into SS.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    Ah! the classic close-minded bigot who knows everything (from personal experience no less!) and disbelieves anything that is data driven. And of course you also engage in ad hominem attacks on me personally without even knowing me. You, sir, are a pathetic loser.

    FYI - I've lived mostly in CA and NY and have worked closely with the agri industry while in CA - so much for your dumb "guess".
    And this would be the classic "Im covered in mud so i'll start slinging it" appraoch so typical of a**holes like yourself who are simply too open minded for their own good

    edit: I forgot to mention that the lovely lady in my avatar happens to be my wife, she would argue that I am no bigot.
    Last edited by sxtg; 05/12/2006 at 11:29 AM.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Because the jobs that are taken by Illegal Aliens that are being paid under the table is replacing that position from a legal immigrant or natural American that would be paing into SS.
    many illegals recieve foodstamps,and other public assistance, in addition using emergecy rooms for even routine care
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  19. #79  
    For those who may not be following the other thread talking a lot about the same topics......here are my thoughts of cost of illegal immigrants vs economic benefits:

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...9&postcount=18

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...6&postcount=73

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...0&postcount=75

    Barye the numbers you eluded to are in these links above.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Barye the numbers you eluded to are in these links above.
    you hobbes, may "elude" the facts, I prefer to refer...
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