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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I haven't had a chance to read your links yet. But I can say that the low wages immigrants will accept has mixed impact. It positively impacts some who will hire those laborers, and possibly the general public with regard to the cost of agricultural products. But it negatively impacts those who used to have some of the jobs laborers now have.
    these papers focus only on the wage-impact - they look at how native worker's wages are impacted as a result of migrant workers - and compare trends across cities/regions with low and high levels of migrant workers. Their conclusion is that native workers wages are impacted only slightly negatively (down by 0.4%) if at all.
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  2. cardio's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    true - but the question is how are people's lives being affected -either positively and negatively?

    For example - on the question of wages - there doesn't seem to be much negative impact (or even positive impact for that matter) by immigrants.

    The following papers focus on low-income migrants (legal or otherwise)

    http://www.nber.org/papers/w11547

    http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/...ggregate_6.pdf
    I think everyone would agree that illegal aliens are paid less than their legal counterparts. If the illegal aliens were replaced with immigrants there would be more cash flow into the economy from several sources; the basic wages earned, fees for items such as drivers license, more buying power for the indiviudal in turn will put more money into the gov't through sales tax, more would have at least some insurance so the burden would not fall entirely on the individual (or gov't through free clinics etc).

    To be honest, to much to digest in your cites right now, but will go through them this evening.
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  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I think everyone would agree that illegal aliens are paid less than their legal counterparts. If the illegal aliens were replaced with immigrants there would be more cash flow into the economy from several sources; the basic wages earned, fees for items such as drivers license, more buying power for the indiviudal in turn will put more money into the gov't through sales tax, more would have at least some insurance so the burden would not fall entirely on the individual (or gov't through free clinics etc).

    To be honest, to much to digest in your cites right now, but will go through them this evening.
    the economic impact of migrants is actually slightly positive though it is overstated.

    To take the example you have further ...

    the employer makes more money by underpaying migrant workers and as a result he passes on his savings to you in the form of a cheaper product/service. You save money and spend in on more goods which in turn leads to greater employment (of more migrants perhaps) and so on. Of course along the way - those businesses also pay more taxes (on higher profit margins) and at least they stay open and don't move their factories to another country. Also most migrant workers tend to have a higher savings rate - and this also good for the economy.

    So the loss of tax revenue from the pathetic wages that the migrants make is more than offset by the tax revenues from the business owners - at least that is the argument in principle. But in reality it seems to be a wash or only slightly positive (most of my cites are unfortunately paid journals)

    Perhaps another way to discourage hiring of illegal immigrants is to raise the minimum wage from its 1997 levels?
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  4. cardio's Avatar
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    the economic impact of migrants is actually slightly positive though it is overstated.

    To take the example you have further ...

    the employer makes more money by underpaying migrant workers and as a result he passes on his savings to you in the form of a cheaper product/service. You save money and spend in on more goods which in turn leads to greater employment (of more migrants perhaps) and so on. Of course along the way - those businesses also pay more taxes (on higher profit margins) and at least they stay open and don't move their factories to another country. Also most migrant workers tend to have a higher savings rate - and this also good for the economy.

    So the loss of tax revenue from the pathetic wages that the migrants make is more than offset by the tax revenues from the business owners - at least that is the argument in principle. But in reality it seems to be a wash or only slightly positive (most of my cites are unfortunately paid journals)

    Perhaps another way to discourage hiring of illegal immigrants is to raise the minimum wage from its 1997 levels?
    I think (and it is only that my thoughts) that if the money is put into the hands of the worker it will contiue to be cycled through the economy. If it is kept in the hands of owners, it has a greater tendency to be stashed away. I do not totally buy into the lower cost because of migrant workers, while I am sure there is a very small reduction in price, most are greedy and say look minimum wage is xx and I pay yy workers so my cost for wages is xx(yy), I doubt they say but I have zz illegal aliens I only pay x so I will reduce the price.
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  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I think (and it is only that my thoughts) that if the money is put into the hands of the worker it will contiue to be cycled through the economy. If it is kept in the hands of owners, it has a greater tendency to be stashed away. I do not totally buy into the lower cost because of migrant workers, while I am sure there is a very small reduction in price, most are greedy and say look minimum wage is xx and I pay yy workers so my cost for wages is xx(yy), I doubt they say but I have zz illegal aliens I only pay x so I will reduce the price.
    ah - but you overlook the power of a free-market economy. As a consumer you will look to pay the lowest price for the product - and that will lead to competition among businesses. The owner with migrant workers has lower overheads so he will be more successful in getting your business. Now if he is the only business/supplier around with migrants then you may be right. But what is to stop other business owners from also hiring cheap migrants and competing for your business? And don't you think this competion will drive down prices further?
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  6. #46  
    just to stay on topic in the off topic...nanu-nanu, shazbot.

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  7. cardio's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    ah - but you overlook the power of a free-market economy. As a consumer you will look to pay the lowest price for the product - and that will lead to competition among businesses. The owner with migrant workers has lower overheads so he will be more successful in getting your business. Now if he is the only business/supplier around with migrants then you may be right. But what is to stop other business owners from also hiring cheap migrants and competing for your business? And don't you think this competion will drive down prices further?
    I understand the free-market and agree it plays a role, but I also know business owners are greedy, they are in it for the money. If the market will accept $3.25 a gallon for gas, why would I sell mine for $2.99 a gallon. I will probably get more business, but will it counterbalance the 26 cent a gallon I am sacrificing? I have some good friends in the ag business in the central valley of CA and I know some of their business practices.
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  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I have some good friends in the ag business in the central valley of CA and I know some of their business practices.
    I know some people there too - and I know exactly what you mean!
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  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    these papers focus only on the wage-impact - they look at how native worker's wages are impacted as a result of migrant workers - and compare trends across cities/regions with low and high levels of migrant workers. Their conclusion is that native workers wages are impacted only slightly negatively (down by 0.4%) if at all.
    I wonder if they factored in unemployment altogether. Just anecdotally, I have experienced a change in my lifetime in the racial makeup of several job sectors--namely: janitorial, food and hospitality, etc. I have to ask, are all of those people who used to be doing these jobs working somewhere better or just not working at all?
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I wonder if they factored in unemployment altogether. Just anecdotally, I have experienced a change in my lifetime in the racial makeup of several job sectors--namely: janitorial, food and hospitality, etc. I have to ask, are all of those people who used to be doing these jobs working somewhere better or just not working at all?
    If you assume that the current generation of migrant workers started entering the US in the 70's and 80's - and if you look at unemployment levels (all categories - white, black, hispanic, total) then there was a downtrend until the lowest unemployment levels in 2000 (the lowest in 50 years) and then started going back up again.
    http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpag...efid=461544504
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    If you assume that the current generation of migrant workers started entering the US in the 70's and 80's - and if you look at unemployment levels (all categories - white, black, hispanic, total) then there was a downtrend until the lowest unemployment levels in 2000 (the lowest in 50 years) and then started going back up again.
    http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpag...efid=461544504
    Thanks largely to a booming economy and tech revolution. What would the unemployment data look like if there was half the rate of illegal immigration? Also, would more people who are trying to immigrate legally have been able to do so?
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    ... I can say that the low wages immigrants will accept has mixed impact. It positively impacts some who will hire those laborers, and possibly the general public with regard to the cost of agricultural products. But it negatively impacts those who used to have some of the jobs laborers now have.
    you are right sir !!!

    (...and correct as well)
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  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I think (and it is only that my thoughts) that if the money is put into the hands of the worker it will contiue to be cycled through the economy. If it is kept in the hands of owners, it has a greater tendency to be stashed away. I do not totally buy into the lower cost because of migrant workers, while I am sure there is a very small reduction in price, most are greedy and say look minimum wage is xx and I pay yy workers so my cost for wages is xx(yy), I doubt they say but I have zz illegal aliens I only pay x so I will reduce the price.
    lol, one of you conservatives should fill him in that he's poking holes in Reganomics
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Thanks largely to a booming economy and tech revolution. What would the unemployment data look like if there was half the rate of illegal immigration? Also, would more people who are trying to immigrate legally have been able to do so?
    You answered your own question - the boom was due to creation of tech jobs - which were higher-paying jobs for natives and legal migrants. Most illegal immigrants then filled the vacuum in the low-income jobs. I seriously doubt that lowering the rate of illegal immigration would have affected the economy boom or levels of unemployment either way. The only real data I have is that increased immigration up until 2000 did not slow down the economy or raise the unemployment rate.
    If the right kinds of polices were adopted earlier then the same people who are here illegally would have been here as legal immigrants.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I think (and it is only that my thoughts) that if the money is put into the hands of the worker it will contiue to be cycled through the economy. If it is kept in the hands of owners, it has a greater tendency to be stashed away. I do not totally buy into the lower cost because of migrant workers, while I am sure there is a very small reduction in price, most are greedy and say look minimum wage is xx and I pay yy workers so my cost for wages is xx(yy), I doubt they say but I have zz illegal aliens I only pay x so I will reduce the price.
    I, ah, agree....
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  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I can say that the low wages immigrants will accept has mixed impact. It positively impacts some who will hire those laborers, and possibly the general public with regard to the cost of agricultural products. But it negatively impacts those who used to have some of the jobs laborers now have.
    Before the Clinton years, we had an idea in America that we cannot be a country of Doctors and Engineers. Somebody has to take out the trash.

    The reality is it seems like globalization is not going away. Right or wrong, the best thing for the United States financially speaking might be to embrace it, expand our goods in to new markets, and take advantage of the influx of cheap labor.

    And if you think that's not on W's mind, you might as well sign up for his intelligent design class while your at it.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Thanks largely to a booming economy and tech revolution. What would the unemployment data look like if there was half the rate of illegal immigration? Also, would more people who are trying to immigrate legally have been able to do so?
    Too bad we can't out-source the landscaping, house cleaning, fruit processing, cooking and other manual labors directly to Mexico, then perhaps those who need the economic benefits from low wages could get those benefits and the taxpayers would not have to foot the bill for the medical, educational and welfare costs of illegals. Seriously, as has been established in the previous posts, this is an issue which is not subject to an easy solution. I may have missed something, but I don't seem to recall the same outrage over the present practice of out-sourcing tech jobs to the Far Eastern countries when it would appear that those jobs are much more in demand than those taken by Hispanic illegals. There is obviously an advantage to the economy of the manufacturers, service sectors, etc. of the large companies who out-source, but I am aware of a large number of USA tech workers who have been hurt by the practice.
    Legalbeagle
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by mesplin@earthli
    Too bad we can't out-source the landscaping, house cleaning, fruit processing, cooking and other manual labors directly to Mexico, then perhaps those who need the economic benefits from low wages could get those benefits and the taxpayers would not have to foot the bill for the medical, educational and welfare costs of illegals. Seriously, as has been established in the previous posts, this is an issue which is not subject to an easy solution. I may have missed something, but I don't seem to recall the same outrage over the present practice of out-sourcing tech jobs to the Far Eastern countries when it would appear that those jobs are much more in demand than those taken by Hispanic illegals. There is obviously an advantage to the economy of the manufacturers, service sectors, etc. of the large companies who out-source, but I am aware of a large number of USA tech workers who have been hurt by the practice.
    Lol, let's run that by the Mexican President.

    Dear Mr. President,

    Could you kindly take back these 12 million migrant workers? We would rather not pay to educate their children and pay for their emergency health care.

    Oh and by the way, can you have them keep doing the work we would rather not do? Does $3 dollars an hour sound fair?

    Sincerely,
    Richest Freest Country in the history of the world.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    You answered your own question - the boom was due to creation of tech jobs - which were higher-paying jobs for natives and legal migrants. Most illegal immigrants then filled the vacuum in the low-income jobs. I seriously doubt that lowering the rate of illegal immigration would have affected the economy boom or levels of unemployment either way. The only real data I have is that increased immigration up until 2000 did not slow down the economy or raise the unemployment rate.
    If the right kinds of polices were adopted earlier then the same people who are here illegally would have been here as legal immigrants.
    First, I don't know for sure but I find it hard to believe that the people who have traditionally had lower wage jobs (i.e. students and the less educated) were suddenly able to capitalize on the tech boom. Second, lowering the rate of illegal immigration would not have had an impact on the tech boom, but it almost certainly would have led to a lower rate of unemployment. Your earlier data seems to support that. How much cannot be determined now--only speculated.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by mesplin@earthli
    Too bad we can't out-source the landscaping, house cleaning, fruit processing, cooking and other manual labors directly to Mexico, then perhaps those who need the economic benefits from low wages could get those benefits and the taxpayers would not have to foot the bill for the medical, educational and welfare costs of illegals. Seriously, as has been established in the previous posts, this is an issue which is not subject to an easy solution. I may have missed something, but I don't seem to recall the same outrage over the present practice of out-sourcing tech jobs to the Far Eastern countries when it would appear that those jobs are much more in demand than those taken by Hispanic illegals. There is obviously an advantage to the economy of the manufacturers, service sectors, etc. of the large companies who out-source, but I am aware of a large number of USA tech workers who have been hurt by the practice.
    Yeah, I don't know why there's not more of an outrage in the larger community either. But being in the business I certainly hear an outrage when I'm at work.
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