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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL

    It doesn't matter how many times we say it, by the next page of this thread someone will try to blur the line again.
    It doesn't really matter, because the rate of influx you need is higher than the rate you would legally allow, and the type of labour you need is not the type of person your criteria to admit would normally fit. In short, illegal immigration is very convenient.

    Regarding population growth, the CIA world fact book says the fertility rate is 2.09 children per woman. The generally accepted rate for population replacement is 2.11, so America is already reproducing below replacement. A big influx of immigrant obviously keeps that in check.

    Surur
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    It doesn't really matter, because the rate of influx you need is higher than the rate you would legally allow, and the type of labour you need is not the type of person your criteria to admit would normally fit. In short, illegal immigration is very convenient.

    Regarding population growth, the CIA world fact book says the fertility rate is 2.09 children per woman. The generally accepted rate for population replacement is 2.11, so America is already reproducing below replacement. A big influx of immigrant obviously keeps that in check.

    Surur
    I don't really care if we need more than we allow. If we need more than we need to allow more. We can't just sit on our hands while people come in illegally and create a class of citizens that: a) don't want/are afraid to assimilate; b) often don't have and can't pay for insurance; c) people think its okay to abuse, etc.
  3. #63  
    And after years of hearing the doom and gloom of those warning us of a population explosion.... maybe not increasing the population is a good thing.... less demand for housing so less paving of the natural environment for homes.... less hunger since the food goes farthur... gas goes farthur so prices may go down for a change... likewise all natural resources. Smaller class sizes mean better education... (Do I sound like a liberal now?)

    Imagine a world where nobody got paid less than min.wage, no underground economy hiring illegals.... hmm....

    to risk promoting the stereotypes... people would have to tend their own lawns or pay reasonable wages to get citizens to do it for them.... wow!
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  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1
    to risk promoting the stereotypes... people would have to tend their own lawns or pay reasonable wages to get citizens to do it for them.... wow!
    Which would help our obesity problem. See, the benefits are manifold.
  5. #65  
    One of China's biggest advantages is cheap labour.Why do you think the jobs are going there. Imagine how well USA will be able to compete with India and China if wages are pushed up by a population shortage.

    I know you may say you will go high tech, but they will do too, and you already import most of your tech from Asia.

    Also a declining population will not support the pension pyramid scheme, and an absolute lack of young economically active people will impact industries such as building, factory work, lower level more physical service jobs etc etc. (you know, the jobs the Hispanics are filling now).

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 05/11/2006 at 07:56 PM.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    One of China's biggest advantages is cheap labour.Why do you think the jobs are going there. Imagine how well USA will be able to compete with India and China if wages are pushed up by a population shortage.

    I know you may say you will go high tech, but they will do too, and you already import most of your tech from Asia.

    Also a declining population will not support then pension pyramid scheme, and an absolute lack of young economically active people will impact industries such as building, factory work, lower level more physical service jobs etc etc. (you know, the jobs the Hispanics are filling now).

    Surur
    So are you saying its okay to allow a certain segment of the population to work for wages that are below what we'd allow for our own citizens?
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    So are you saying its okay to allow a certain segment of the population to work for wages that are below what we'd allow for our own citizens?
    You know me hoovs. I'm a moral relativist. The Hispanics came by themselves, and can go back by themselves. They are not slaves. You do not have an obligation to save them from themselves.

    Surur
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    [snip] ...Also a declining population will not support the pension pyramid scheme, and an absolute lack of young economically active people will impact industries such as building, factory work, lower level more physical service jobs etc etc. (you know, the jobs the Hispanics are filling now).

    Surur
    When we decline to a point where they can take it from us, they can have it I guess. Till that day happens, or the laws are re-written, they are ILLEGAL!

    Thread Crapper
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    .



  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1
    And after years of hearing the doom and gloom of those warning us of a population explosion.... maybe not increasing the population is a good thing.... less demand for housing so less paving of the natural environment for homes.... less hunger since the food goes farthur... gas goes farthur so prices may go down for a change... likewise all natural resources. Smaller class sizes mean better education... (Do I sound like a liberal now?)

    Imagine a world where nobody got paid less than min.wage, no underground economy hiring illegals.... hmm....

    to risk promoting the stereotypes... people would have to tend their own lawns or pay reasonable wages to get citizens to do it for them.... wow!
    what??? I have to give up my six figure job and do my lawn and look after my own kids?? And then how can I go shopping in all those wonderful stores and fill my house with lots of totally useless stuff? And I'll have to move out of this luxury house - wait a minute - there goes our economy - if I don't buy anything and don't hold up the ridiculous house-prices - that's the end of American civilization!
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  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    When we decline to a point where they can take it from us, they can have it I guess. Till that day happens, or the laws are re-written, they are ILLEGAL!
    Isn't that what that proposed amnesty was all about.

    Surur
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    You know me hoovs. I'm a moral relativist. The Hispanics came by themselves, and can go back by themselves. They are not slaves. You do not have an obligation to save them from themselves.

    Surur
    Neither do I have an obligation to let them stay and cry for amnesty. Once they get amnesty do you think they'll keep working for below minimum wage?
  12.    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Neither do I have an obligation to let them stay and cry for amnesty.
    You kind of do, I suspect that's why you come across so angrily.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    Hey Hobbes - it has been a long time hasn't it?

    I'm sorry - but I find it hard to accept your data - I did click thru your cites and most of them were either blogs or reports from non-refereed partisan thinktanks. None of those links referenced any peer-reviewed published literature or government data.
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Hehe ... I tried to tell him before...
    Okay if you don't like the data from one or two of the sources, how about these

    EDIT: BLAZE WARNING. This post is guaranteed to be beyond your comfort reading length of a post. It also is very factually oriented


    Illegal aliens cost California billions

    Illegal immigration costs the taxpayers of California which has the highest number of illegal aliens nationwide $10.5 billion a year for education, health care and incarceration

    -----------------

    state's already struggling kindergarten-through-12th-grade education system spends $7.7 billion a year on children of illegal aliens, who constitute 15 percent of the student body.

    -------------------

    incarceration of convicted illegal aliens in state prisons and jails and uncompensated medical outlays for health care provided to illegal aliens each amounted to about $1.4 billion annually

    ----------------

    "California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal-alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle-class tax base," said FAIR President Dan Stein.

    "Most Californians, who have seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become," he said.

    California is estimated to be home to nearly 3 million illegal aliens.

    ----------------------

    In August, a similar study by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, said U.S. households headed by illegal aliens used $26.3 billion in government services during 2002, but paid $16 billion in taxes, an annual cost to taxpayers of $10 billion.

    FULL STORY: http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...2115-6766r.htm

    The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave

    In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

    FULL Story: http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_...gal_alien.html

    The Cost of Illegal Immigration

    At Senator Jon Kyle's request, his organization calculated the cost to Arizona hospitals for treating illegal immigrants at 31 million dollars in just one year.

    -------------

    And according to the Center for Immigration Studies, Welfare payments, including food stamps to Illegal immigrants in Arizona cost us $4,698,000 in 2001.

    FULL STORY: http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp...av=menu135_2_5


    Calculating the Social Cost of Illegal Immigration

    John Rabe of member station KPCC reports on how much taxpayers spend on health care and education for undocumented aliens.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5366515

    Illegal aliens cost state $25M

    State Auditor Phil Bryant estimates illegal immigrants cost Mississippi taxpayers $25 million annually for health care, education and prison costs, according to a report released Friday.

    -------------

    The only point on which both sides agree is that no accurate count of illegal immigrants exists, though some estimates top 100,000.

    Bryant's report used a more conservative estimate of 49,000 people to arrive at a cost of providing social services to immigrants.

    -----------------

    Bill Chandler, president of the Mississippi Immigrants Rights Alliance, said the report is a "racist attack on immigrants."

    "This report is not based in fact," he said. "Immigrants are not the reason the state's not getting the money it should."

    Rep. Mike Lott, R-Petal, said the report does not target one ethnicity.

    "They're all races," Lott said. "It has everything to do with the word illegal."

    FULL STORY: http://clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.d...NEWS/602250374


    The High Cost Of Cheap Labor:
    The power brokers of corporate America don't want to see any serious attempts to stop illegal immigration
    It should go without saying that the price of that orange in the supermarket does not reflect the actual environmental and economic costs of production, transportation and waste.

    Nor does it reflect social costs. All the millions of aliens - and their families - reported to be living and working in this country illegally require housing, schools, health care, transportation and food. Even if the illegal worker chooses to pay them, the taxes from his meager wage do not begin to cover the costs of support services.

    In fact, California's addiction to "cheap" illegal labor is bankrupting the state. The Federation for American Immigration Reform estimates the cost of health care, education and incarceration of illegal aliens at $10.5 billion per year. They also depress wages for all American citizens by an estimated $200 billion. Granting aliens legal status would make accessible to them more services, the cost of which would not be covered by taxes from their largely low-paying jobs.

    FULL STORY: http://www.registerguard.com/news/20...ection=opinion
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/12/2006 at 02:46 AM.
  14. #74  
    Hobbes, I know you are against illegal aliens, and I know data on the fiscal benifits of illegal aliens are hard to find (having had to look hard myself) but one really cont make an informed opinion if you dont include the financial benifits of illegal aliens. We know there are, but it seems people prefer to exclude that side.
    A simple proposed benifit is keeping companies and jobs in the state, increasing the taxable income there, vs losing it to other parts of the country or the world where labour is cheaper. My post from earlier said USA basically has full employment, which suggests that if these illegal immigrants were not doing these jobs the jobs would not get done, or will have to take people away from other more desirable jobs, increasing cost to the employer dramatically. These companies would then not be competitive with overseas employers.

    Again Hobbes, you are a fair guy. How about adding som balance to your post.
    Surur
  15. #75  
    Actually that is why I chose some of the cites I did in my last post.....because several of them do look at what they contribute vs what the social cost is and report the difference, and cheaper cost of product vs economic cost of cheap labor.

    And a balanced view does need to go both ways. Those who do not recognize ILLEGAL aliens and are for UNDOCUMENTED Immigrants will ignore the drain of services that the illegal actions of those who have not entered the country thru legal means does have on our society, economy, social services, educational system, etc.... For example Blaze will always say blah, blah, too much info and never acknowledge it. I mean when hospitals have to be closed and naming supporting uninsured illegal aliens as a the main cause, 30% of inmates we are paying to incarcerate are illegal aliens, etc....there has to be some recognition that this is at the very least a concern to looked at.

    I am more than willing to look at studies that shows the benefits of cheap labor vs costs of supporting illegal aliens. But most of them that I have found (including some of the ones I linked to above) do look at taxes being paid, taxes that would be paid if they all did, economic benefit of cheaper produce, etc...compared to the cost of supporting illegal aliens in health care, law enforcement, prisons, education, food stamps, accidents involving uninsured illegal alien drivers, etc... and most of them come out with the scale against illegal aliens.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/12/2006 at 10:48 AM.
  16. #76  
    Yes, but post the numbers. You've given copious numbers from he other side, how about some from the income generated due o illegal aliens.

    Surur
  17. #77  
    That is what the first and last cite focuses on.....what is put into the system or benefits given to the system vs what is drawn from it and reports the balance. The $10 Billion figure is not the cost it is the balance of the remaining cost after those illegal aliens that actually do pay taxes are figured in and subtracted. The last one focuses on the cost vs benefit of having cheap illegal labor vs minimum wage legal workers.

    Please feel free to cite additional studies that focuses on both (not just the the cost and not just the benefits).
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    That is what the first and last cite focuses on.....what is put into the system or benefits given to the system vs what is drawn from it and reports the balance. The $10 Billion figure is not the cost it is the balance of the remaining cost after those illegal aliens that actually do pay taxes are figured in and subtracted. The last one focuses on the cost vs benefit of having cheap illegal labor vs minimum wage legal workers.

    Please feel free to cite additional studies that focuses on both (not just the the cost and not just the benefits).
    The last one is just pure partisan oratory, and the first one does not address my main premise: the indirect contribution to state coffers and citizen pocketbooks of illegal immigrants.

    Gerardo Gonzalez, director of the National Latino Research Center at California State at San Marcos, which compiles data on Hispanics, was critical of FAIR's report yesterday. He said FAIR's estimates did not measure some of the contributions that illegal aliens make to the state's economy.
    "Beyond taxes, these workers' production and spending contribute to California's economy, especially the agricultural sector," he said, adding that both legal and illegal aliens are the "backbone" of the state's $28 billion-a-year agricultural industry.
    The above is part of the indirect contribution (vs taxes paid in directly by illegal immigrants. My one cite above says only a small percentage of immigrants actually work in agriculture, the majority working in the service industry. They therefore contribute to the productivity of a very large part of the economy of the country, not just agriculture.

    In August, a similar study by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, said U.S. households headed by illegal aliens used $26.3 billion in government services during 2002, but paid $16 billion in taxes, an annual cost to taxpayers of $10 billion.
    So the 10 billion is only the cost minus the taxes they pay, ignoring the indirect contribution e.g. the increased income of the companies resulting in increased taxes paid by companies, increased value to people's investment in stocks and shares, and increased retirement plans, cheaper goods and services, resulting in more disposable income supporting other ancillary industries such as entertainment etc.

    If we take that 10 billion and divide it by 12.5 million workers, we find they each only need to generate $800 per year in extra taxes to the government. I am sure employers save 5 times as much per year, which they plow into capital expenses, profit (which is taxed), generating other higher paid management jobs, and passing saving on to other consumers.

    Or to put it differently, is it possible that illegal immigrants save citizens $33 per year (10 billion/ 300 million). If your lettuce is $2 cheaper its probably more than the case.

    I would like to see a study trying to quantify these benefits.

    Surur
  19.    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    ...the increased income of the companies resulting in increased taxes paid by companies, increased value to people's investment in stocks and shares, and increased retirement plans, cheaper goods and services, resulting in more disposable income supporting other ancillary industries such as entertainment etc.

    If we take that 10 billion and divide it by 12.5 million workers, we find they each only need to generate $800 per year in extra taxes to the government. I am sure employers save 5 times as much per year, which they plow into capital expenses, profit (which is taxed), generating other higher paid management jobs, and passing saving on to other consumers.

    Or to put it differently, is it possible that illegal immigrants save citizens $33 per year (10 billion/ 300 million). If your lettuce is $2 cheaper its probably more than the case.
    Which is the only reason George W wants the borders open.
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