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  1. #41  
    Immigration a (tiny) net benefit
    Workers are filling empty jobs, not taking them from U.S. citizens. Still, one expert calls the system an economic wash.
    By Kevin G. Hall
    Inquirer Washington Bureau
    WASHINGTON - Immigration is an emotionally charged and politically sensitive issue, as Congress wrestles with rewriting the law, but its effect on the vibrant U.S. economy isn't very controversial.
    "The consensus view is, it is a net benefit to the country," said Tim Smith, a senior economist and immigration expert at the Rand Corp., a research center in Santa Monica, Calif.
    Unemployment is 4.8 percent, close to what economists view as full employment. That means immigrants are basically filling empty jobs, not taking them away from U.S. citizens.
    Yet while immigration is a net economic benefit, it is one so modest that Smith cautioned that it "would not be on my top 10 list" of what is driving the U.S. economy.
    Harvard University economist George Borjas recently published a study on the economic effects of immigration. He thinks the costs and benefits are a wash. Small gains to the broader economy are offset by social and fiscal costs such as providing health care to poor immigrants and schooling children who do not speak English.
    "It would not be far-fetched to say there would be zero gain from this," he said in an interview.
    The larger economic consequences of immigration are likely to be felt years from now as U.S. demographics evolve.
    In 2000, Hispanics were 12.6 percent of the U.S. population. The Census Bureau projects that by 2050, barring significant changes in immigration patterns, Hispanics will make up almost 25 percent of the population.
    This will occur as baby boomers - Americans born from 1946 to 1964 - start retiring. The first boomers turn 65 in 2011.
    "We've got 77 million people, baby boomers, getting ready to retire. How are we going to replace them?" Thomas Donohue, the president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, asked in a recent interview. "We haven't got 77 million people ready to go to work."
    The American economy, he said, does not need cheap labor. It just needs labor, "and we're going to be significantly without it."
    The future is now in the building trades, a sector already hampered by the graying workforce.
    "You don't see a lot of 60-year-olds scrambling around on the roof," said Craig Silvertooth, the director of federal affairs for the National Roofing Contractors Association in Washington. "What we're seeing in our industry, the makeup of the labor force is increasingly Hispanic, but the majority is foreign-born. It's pretty much the case everywhere in the country."
    The trade group, which represents about 60 percent of the nation's large commercial contractors, supports efforts in Congress to help legalize the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants who already are in the United States and to permit more foreigners to enter for jobs.
    Also supporting more liberal immigration is the Service Employees International Union, whose 1.8 million members include janitors, landscape workers, and home health-care providers.
    "We are going to need more people to take care of older people. Nursing homes and assisted living is going to be huge in terms of the need for workers," said Eliseo Medina, the union's executive vice president and the son of an undocumented farm worker.
    The latest Census Bureau data, which tracked employment of foreign-born Mexicans and Central Americans in 2004 - legal and illegal - showed that 30 percent were in service jobs, the strongest sector of the U.S. economy. An additional 24 percent worked in production and transportation, 22 percent were in construction-related work, and 12 percent had sales and office jobs. Only 3.7 percent worked in farming, though they made up 24 percent of farm workers.
    Although most economists see a small net benefit from immigration, they note that it is not spread across the economy.
    Instead, illegal immigration drags down wages for those at the bottom.
    "Where you see immigration competition play out most clearly is among high school dropouts," said Jared Bernstein, an economist with the union-funded Economic Policy Institute in Washington. "I'd say there's clearly immigrant competition among the least-skilled workers, but natives are a shrinking share while immigrants are a growing share."
    Borjas found that Mexicans now make up 4 percent of the U.S. workforce, or 1 in 25 workers. That is up dramatically from 0.4 percent in 1970. That swelling immigrant population drove down pay in construction, landscaping and similar day-labor jobs.
    Roger Faulkner, the owner of the Four Seasons Roofing Co. in Springfield, Mo., routinely finds his firm underbid by companies that rely on illegal immigrants who are paid less than his workers.
    "They're always taking away work, and undercut everybody," he complained. Faulkner said those companies bid 20 percent to 50 percent lower on work, and "they take one market, then another, then another."
    http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld...uirer_business

    So currently small benifit, and major benifit in the future, to stop the country from slipping into senescense.

    Surur
  2. #42  
    Quote:
    The solution to all of America's problems ....

    Deport all undocumented aliens (and they're easy to spot - anyone who is not caucasian)

    Seal our borders to south by building a 700 mile steel and concrete barrier (machine gun towers are optional)

    This will immediately result in:

    Gas prices will go down to 50 cents a gallon
    We will win the "peace" in Iraq and our troops will be home by Xmas
    There will be no more terrorism on US soil ever again
    Our health care costs will go down because all private insurance companies will drop their premiums by 99%
    We will not have to pay auto insurance anymore because there no more uninsured motorists and hence no accidents
    We will all get high paying jobs - and yes - even get back all those "outsourced" jobs!
    Crime rate will drop to zero
    All our children will get free education all the way upto the graduate level
    There will be no more global warming (or at least here in the US)
    All gays and lesbians will go straight and there will be no more nonsense about their having "rights"...Quote:

    Excellent...Your catching on...

    Chuck
  3. #43  
    Blaze - thanks for carrying on the work of decency and intelligence. Can be a pretty hard slog, these days.

    Chillig35, better than even money on a bet that chckhbrt will start copying and pasting your brilliant bit of humor as a genuine argument in emails to his remaining friends.
  4. #44  
    <<Ahh, another expert on right and wrong, good and evil.>>

    See other thread about right and wrong/legal and illegal...


    <<After we put the farm workers in the tent city jail, who will care for their american citizen children?>>

    Was this in reference to illegals having legal children? If they are minors, they both should go home and live there. Just because an American travelling in Canada gives birth, she doesn't leave the kid alone in Canada- she takes them home. Did they have the kids in the US just to get an excuse to stay?



    = = =
    At first I thought you were referring to illegals who care for American children- in that case, what a unique concept for the parents to care for their own kids.... wow! Back in the day- only the rich could afford nannys.... and they paid them well. Others were raised by Mom & Dad (usually Mom). But Since you were referring to farm workers- see paragraph above this one.

    = = =

    Chuck- you lay the sarcasm on quite thick, thicker than chunky Peanut Butter!
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
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  5.    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1
    <<After we put the farm workers in the tent city jail, who will care for their american citizen children?>>

    Was this in reference to illegals having legal children? If they are minors, they both should go home and live there. Just because an American travelling in Canada gives birth, she doesn't leave the kid alone in Canada- she takes them home. Did they have the kids in the US just to get an excuse to stay?
    Chkbert was suggesting that they be thrown in jail. Not deported.
    Quote Originally Posted by chkbert
    If Sheriff Joes tent city jail with the tents, pink underwear, green balogna, moldy cheeze on stale moldy bread and few ounces of water per day is good enough for US citizen law breaker, it is certainly good enough for the individual self smuggler/ILLEGAL ALIEN. Oh hell, it's prolly better than what the individual self smuggler has available at home. IN MEXICO.
    And if you read the article, the reason that this sherrif does not send the immigrants to the INS is because the INS will not deport them.

    That is why he is attempting to arrest and try them on a smuggling charge, not on the charge that they are not legal residents.
  6. #46  
    Shivering immigrants found trapped in truck trailer

    Two suspected smugglers arrested



    Thursday, May 11, 2006; Posted: 12:47 p.m. EDT


    LAREDO, Texas (AP) -- Sheriff's deputies found 56 illegal immigrants locked inside a refrigerated trailer with no driver in sight and no way for the shivering human cargo to escape. Two suspected immigrant smugglers from Mexico were later arrested.

    An anonymous call led deputies to the trailer in a warehouse district of Laredo. The key was in the ignition and the trailer's refrigeration was on, Webb County Sheriff Rick Flores said.

    The 43 men, 11 women and two children had been in the truck for about six hours, Flores said. None was injured, but when deputies found them, they were bunched together in the center of the trailer to avoid the icy walls and to try to stay warm.

    "They couldn't get out of there even if they had wanted to," said Melanie Velarde of Crime Stoppers in Laredo. "The walls of the truck were sealed shut to keep the cold in, and the doors were locked and bar-shut from the outside."

    Flores said the people had been loaded into the trailer on the American side of the border. The smugglers may have had trouble finding a driver, he said.

    The suspected smugglers, a man and woman, were arrested late Wednesday at a house in Laredo near Interstate 35. Investigators suspect the house was being used as a staging location for human smuggling, said Nina Pruneda, spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Immigration and Customs Enforcement in San Antonio.

    The two, believed to be illegal immigrants themselves, were held on suspicion of harboring illegal immigrants and were scheduled to face a U.S magistrate in Laredo on Friday, Pruneda said. Their identities were not released and additional charges and arrests were possible, she said.

    Most of the immigrants had been returned to Mexico by Wednesday evening, Pruneda said.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    The solution to all of America's problems ....

    Deport all undocumented aliens (and they're easy to spot - anyone who is not caucasian)

    Seal our borders to south by building a 700 mile steel and concrete barrier (machine gun towers are optional)

    This will immediately result in:

    1. Gas prices will go down to 50 cents a gallon
    2. We will win the "peace" in Iraq and our troops will be home by Xmas
    3. There will be no more terrorism on US soil ever again
    4. Our health care costs will go down because all private insurance companies will drop their premiums by 99%
    5. We will not have to pay auto insurance anymore because there no more uninsured motorists and hence no accidents
    6. We will all get high paying jobs - and yes - even get back all those "outsourced" jobs!
    7. Crime rate will drop to zero
    8. All our children will get free education all the way upto the graduate level
    9. There will be no more global warming (or at least here in the US)
    10. All gays and lesbians will go straight and there will be no more nonsense about their having "rights"
    You see, they key in making a successful strawman argument is making the differences between the strawman and the real argument very subtle. Care to give it another shot?
  8.    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    You see, they key in making a successful strawman argument is making the differences between the strawman and the real argument very subtle. Care to give it another shot?
    lol, hes mad again

    but hes right, take it from the expert in defining the arguement of the opponent
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by chckhbrt
    Yeah....

    I heard about this yesterday. I think it's great. Afterall, the ILLEGAL ALIENS are here ILLEGALLY. Each ILLEGAL ALIEN broke US immigration laws by comming to the US without documentation.

    The ILLEGAL ALIENS are a drain on US society.

    The ILLEGAL ALIENS are taking jobs in the US that they are not entitled to. And no, I am talking about farm labor.

    Many ILLEGALS drive cars on US streets without a drivers licence or auto insurance.

    Many ILLEGALS commit other crimes in the US because there are to many ILLEGALS here.

    I love that sheriff Joe....

    chuck
    just extended this list a bit more .... that's all
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  10. #50  
    So could post #46 be a case of smugglers smuggling smugglers?

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    lol, can somebody summarize what Hobbes just posted?
    Okay, I will try to simplify it a bit for you, but be warned facts still follow:
    • National Security
      Having unchecked and unsupported procedures to protect against illegal immigration is an open door for terrors to coming into our country.
    • Health Care
    • FAIR estimates "there are currently between 287,000 and 363,000 children born to illegal aliens each year. In 1994, California paid for 74,987 deliveries to illegal alien mothers, at a total cost of $215.2 million
    • Medical service for Americans in affected communities is being severely damaged as hospitals absorb more than $200 million in unreimbursed costs from illegal aliens.
    • In California, the losses are calculated to be about $79 million, with $74 million in Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico.
    • An estimated one-third to one-half illegal aliens work off the books. It costs $200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually
  12. Violent Crimes
  13. averages that 30% of all local and federal prisoners are illegal immigrants
  14. In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens
  15. When an alien criminal gets caught for rape, murder or drug distribution, you pay $1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons
  16. Education
  17. The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states nearly $12 billion annually, and when the children born here to illegal aliens are added, the costs more than double to $28.6 billion.
  18. In Texas, the $3.9 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants
  19. In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants—nearly 13% of the overall 2004–5 education budget
  20. In New York, the $3.1 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants
  21. In Illinois, the $2 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants

  22. SUMMARY
    This NOT targeting Mexicans, but illegal immigrants from all nations.

    Total costs of only those listed in the original post added up to $31.4 Billion a year to support illegal immigrants that is not covered by the illegal immigrants and still did not cover the costs of transportation, tax revenue lost, cost of police to handle crimes from those here illegally, damage done to property or cars by illegal immigrants without insurance, etc... and is only looking at costs from 4 or 6 states ONLY in many of the examples.

  23. Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/11/2006 at 05:21 PM.
  24. #52  
    Hey Hobbes - it has been a long time hasn't it?

    I'm sorry - but I find it hard to accept your data - I did click thru your cites and most of them were either blogs or reports from non-refereed partisan thinktanks. None of those links referenced any peer-reviewed published literature or government data.

    In the case of wage impact I have referenced some literature on this thread:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...2&postcount=38
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  25. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    Hey Hobbes - it has been a long time hasn't it?

    I'm sorry - but I find it hard to accept your data - I did click thru your cites and most of them were either blogs or reports from non-refereed partisan thinktanks. None of those links referenced any peer-reviewed published literature or government data.

    In the case of wage impact I have referenced some literature on this thread:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...2&postcount=38
    Hey Chill....I actually read a very similiar report on a news site about 4 days ago, which made me think about when I first posted. I will have to google it. It was similar enough I just used what I posted before.

    Yea, I have been reading thru some of that. The main point is that there is a LOT more to economic issue of Illegal Immigrants than the single fact they will work for less money. It does take a toll when they do not have health insurance and use our medical care services. They do not pay taxes and use our schools. That 30% of all the prisoners in our prison system are Illegal Aliens.
  26.    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    Hey Hobbes - it has been a long time hasn't it?

    I'm sorry - but I find it hard to accept your data - I did click thru your cites and most of them were either blogs or reports from non-refereed partisan thinktanks. None of those links referenced any peer-reviewed published literature or government data.

    In the case of wage impact I have referenced some literature on this thread:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...2&postcount=38
    Hehe ... I tried to tell him before...

    If there is an ad next to the cite that tells where you can buy a "God hates Fags" bumper sticker. It might not be a reliable source.
  27. #55  
    Hobbes, where's the balance. How about listing the benefits next to the costs e.g. children are a blessing in a country which would otherwise have a declining population. Just ask Italy.

    Surur
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Hobbes, where's the balance. How about listing the benefits next to the costs e.g. children are a blessing in a country which would otherwise have a declining population. Just ask Italy.

    Surur
    Are you saying that without the children born to the illegal alien our population is in decline?
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  29. #57  
    Quote:
    Chkbert was suggesting that they be thrown in jail. Not deported.

    Well blaze, there you go again......
    assuming something that was never said.

    I never said or suggested the ILLEGAL ALIENS should not be deported.

    The ILLEGAL ALIENS who are found guilty of smuggling themselves into the US, should be jailed for their crime and then deported.

    BTW blaze...I recall from your Orlando thread that you dealt with the INS a couple of times. Are you here legally?

    Chuck
  30. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Are you saying that without the children born to the illegal alien our population is in decline?
    Its probably true though not a reason to let illegal immigration to run amuck. There are plenty of people who want to be here and are willing to go through the legal processes.
  31. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Hobbes, where's the balance. How about listing the benefits next to the costs e.g. children are a blessing in a country which would otherwise have a declining population. Just ask Italy.

    Surur
    I am ONLY talking about Illegal Immigrants, as I am VERY pro imigration.
  32. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I am ONLY talking about Illegal Immigrants, as I am VERY pro imigration.
    ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL

    It doesn't matter how many times we say it, by the next page of this thread someone will try to blur the line again.
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