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  1. #61  
    Since we only have what you have quoted, the word "should" be stoped, means nothing much.
    Had it said "must" be stopped, that would be wrong and they would have no right to make such a request.

    A better request could have been worded, "such activity should be strongley discouraged."

    IMHO

    Thread Crapper
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    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  2. #62  
    Its called gunship diplomacy. Countries often pressure other countries. It being the USA asking they better do as they say. Bahrain isn't very far from Iraq.

    Surur
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Probably the main difference is that academia expect to be overturned in the future, and built their reputation on overturning others. A scientist may say "In a hundred years they may prove Einstein wrong" and still sleep easy at night whereas it would be really strange for a clergyman to say "In a hundred years priests may no longer believe that Christ was the son of God".

    Science is about the process, whereas religion is all about old beliefs.

    Surur
    Well, I think there are a number of scientists who have a religious fervor in their stance on certain issues (see many of those supporting the claim that global warming is man's doing). And I don't deny that religion has a "leap of faith" component. My point is mainly that religion need not be inconsistent with truth and its unfair to say that it always is.
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    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Its called gunship diplomacy. Countries often pressure other countries. It being the USA asking they better do as they say. Bahrain isn't very far from Iraq.

    Surur
    Nice talking point that brought absolutely no value to the conversation
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Nice talking point that brought absolutely no value to the conversation
    Well, think about it. We were not asked to discuss homosexuality, but the right of one country to dictate to another. The truth is that might makes right. USA is the mightiest country on the planet. What they say appears to go. The example of Iraq is particularly telling. USA is intractable and even hostile to the demands of others, but quite strident in trying to get their own way and act in their own interest. Is any of that in question?

    Surur
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Well, I think there are a number of scientists who have a religious fervor in their stance on certain issues (see many of those supporting the claim that global warming is man's doing).
    c'mon hoovs - that is unfair - slinging mud at the one truly objective establishment just because they happen to be saying something you don't agree with. Shooting the messenger doesn't make the message go away. As for the the link between global warming and human activities - see my post here:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...&postcount=548
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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    c'mon hoovs - that is unfair - slinging mud at the one truly objective establishment just because they happen to be saying something you don't agree with. Shooting the messenger doesn't make the message go away. As for the the link between global warming and human activities - see my post here:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...&postcount=548
    I don't mean to rehash that argument. And I wasn't trying to sling mud at the whole establishment. Just those who treat their belief in global warming like a religion.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I don't mean to rehash that argument. And I wasn't trying to sling mud at the whole establishment. Just those who treat their belief in global warming like a religion.
    If you're talking about the left-wing loonies who're painting gloom & doom scenarios I agree with you - I don't buy their projections - but then most of them are not scientists nor are they even mainstream science.

    But the data showing the rapid increase of greenhouse gases and increase in global temperatures since the advent of industrial era is well accepted by the majority of the scientific community.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    If you're talking about the left-wing loonies who're painting gloom & doom scenarios I agree with you - I don't buy their projections - but then most of them are not scientists nor are they even mainstream science.

    But the data showing the rapid increase of greenhouse gases and increase in global temperatures since the advent of industrial era is well accepted by the majority of the scientific community.
    If you dont accept the doom and gloom projections, what do you expect over the next 50 and 100 years?

    Surur
  10. #70  
    <<You act as though I am the inventor of those procedures.>>

    Let me clarify... I have a problem with those reasons that you gave- (not that you invented or condoned) for mutilation... not saying anything about your opinion- for all I know you have the same problem with them that I do...

    I hope that makes it clearer.
    "Everybody Palm!"

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  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I don't mean to rehash that argument. And I wasn't trying to sling mud at the whole establishment. Just those who treat their belief in global warming like a religion.
    Lets see, a leader who treats his science like a religion, or a leader who uses religion as a substitute for science. That's a tough one.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Again, dont confuse universally agreed upon rights, with those handed down directly from God.

    Our forefathers did not found a theocracy.
    "universally Agreed Upon" Actually- it is difficult to get every human in the universe to agree on what are rights and what are not.

    They may not have formed a theocracy, but they had some sense of a higher power/creator who gave these rights they were securing. It would be more accurate that they saw these rights as from God/from the creator (they even said as much)

    They were not rights because they were agreed upon by men... they were inalienable rights that men happened to try to secure in the country by the founding documents. But they were rights before there was a USA. Just not codified yet. If they were only rights because men agreed to them, men could later disagree with them and repeal them. The idea is that these are universal/God-given rights that existed outside of any country agreeing to them or not.

    Now, this comes into play when other countries are run by real dictators, who do not recognize these rights their people have. Thus we have democracy-building... an attempt to throw off their chains and free them. It remains to be seen how this will work in cultures that did not know such freedom... to the extent they themselves work and fight for it (like we did) they may value it more and make it work. If it is given to them and they are not ready... we'll see.
    "Everybody Palm!"

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    Leo killed my future Pre 3 & Opal, dagnabitt!
    Should I buy a Handspring Visor instead?
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  13. #73  
    Redbelt... the act of homosexuality was not condoned here for years... and is still technically illegal I believe in some states. Some here agree that it is an act, and therefore a "sin"- no better or worse than others, but still "wrong".

    The "problem" with our freedom is we have people who believe all sorts of things... Super conservative congressmen from here could have just as easily gone over there and asked/begged/pressured your people to keep homosexuality a crime.

    The aspect of women wearing coverings... it is freedom if they are doing it voluntarilly because they want to- but if they are being threatened with beheading is seems less free.

    Now I know in some european countries such religious garb was banned- that is just as wrong as requiring it, I think. Let people have the freedom to wear it or not- with all that means. Over here some schools and comapnies have a problem with people displaying bibles or crosses, but yet people have "Survivor" buffs or Simpsons t-shirts. That is unfairly censoring some expressions and not others.
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
    Leo killed my future Pre 3 & Opal, dagnabitt!
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    Got a Pre2! "It eats iPhones for Breakfast"!
  14.    #74  
    Thanks guys
    I see a paradox that will always make people disagree
    Now democracy is good & all. So if you put the issue of homosexuality to a vote in the UAE it will be a solid no!
    Now in the US, you have several freedoms because its the land of the free. So after a couple of votes, citizen's are wire tapped. While this may passed because of the freedom to vote, somehow it goes against the freedom of privcacy!

    Similarly, freedom can make you get together and make anything acceptable or not. Weather its homosexuality or chewing gum (singapore) or video games (greece).
    this basically means different groups will get different opinions.

    Therefore international law will be less and less realistic the higher up in Maslo's pyramid you go. simply because people will interpret them differently,
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    ...Therefore international law will be less and less realistic the higher up in Maslo's pyramid you go. simply because people will interpret them differently,
    Actually, self-preservation is likely the factor that will enable international law. The factor that we have not discussed in this matter is the effect of calamity on how strongly people cling to deeply held beliefs.

    Suppose there was significant famine in the world. To what extent would those who believe act "x" is wrong, hold to that conviction if their next meal depended on their position?

    How many U.S. citizens who were willing to go along with the patriot act following the events of Sept 11, 2001 would have done so on Sept 10 of the same year?

    How many people who crave personal privacy will welcome a tracking device implant that enables them to participate in the global economy?

    It is under such pressure that one discovers what s/he truly believes.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If you dont accept the doom and gloom projections, what do you expect over the next 50 and 100 years?

    Surur
    Some of the more scientific predictions (which I agree are likely and are supported by validated climate models) are reduction in the polar ice caps, increasing ocean levels, and possible stabilization of global temperatures (think of it - if the polar ice caps melt - then the ice released would cool down the ocean temperatures eventually).

    The gloom & doom scenarios such as continually increasing hurricane/storm activity, flooding and destruction of vast swaths of populated land areas due to rising ocean levels, continually rising global temperatures (and the possibility that the temperate climates become tropical!) have not been supported by scientific data or models - these are just speculations by a handful of scientists.

    That does not mean that we continue to blithely ignore this issue and act as if did not matter - but act in the interest of self-preservation. There is always the possibility that our scientific models could actually underestimate the negative consequences of global warming and things could get far worse than we imagined. I, for one, would rather err on the side of caution - the worst that could happen is that we have cleaner air to breathe a 100 years from now.
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  17. #77  
    I think George Carlin said it best...(profanity removed)

    We're so self-important. So self-important. Everybody's going to save something now. "Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails." And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these people kidding me? Save the planet, we don't even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another, we're gonna save the planet?

    I'm getting tired of it. Tired of it. I'm tired of Earth Day, I'm tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don't care about the planet. They don't care. Not in the abstract they don't. Not in the abstract they don't. You know what they're interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They're worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn't impress me.

    Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are screwed. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We've been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just a-floatin' around the sun?

    The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles...hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages...And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE!

    We're going away. Pack your stuff, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

    You wanna know how the planet's doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet's doing. You wanna know if the planet's all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

    The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn't know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, "Why are we here?" Plastic!.

    So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that's begun. Don't you think that's already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let's see... Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh...viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

    Well, that's a poetic note. And it's a start. And I can dream, can't I? See I don't worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we're part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron...whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn't punish, it doesn't reward, it doesn't judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Thanks guys
    I see a paradox that will always make people disagree
    Now democracy is good & all. So if you put the issue of homosexuality to a vote in the UAE it will be a solid no!
    Now in the US, you have several freedoms because its the land of the free. So after a couple of votes, citizen's are wire tapped. While this may passed because of the freedom to vote, somehow it goes against the freedom of privcacy!

    Similarly, freedom can make you get together and make anything acceptable or not. Weather its homosexuality or chewing gum (singapore) or video games (greece).
    this basically means different groups will get different opinions.

    Therefore international law will be less and less realistic the higher up in Maslo's pyramid you go. simply because people will interpret them differently,
    I think you're missing the point completely ....

    It's true that different countries have different customs and laws - and these are ascribed to the basic inherent cultural traditions (or circumstances) within those communities. However there seem to be certain common human behavior patterns throughout history and across the world. Some examples include suppression of other races, sexes (usually females), religions and most certainly strong repression of homosexuality. Democracy is still a newfangled concept (as we are discovering all the time here in the USA), but it is the only institution that allows us to overcome our taboos and sometimes wrong traditions and build a civilized society based on rational understanding of our human nature. Yes, I know it sounds like an impossible ideal (we certainly are not anywhere close to that here in the US) but at least it is better than where we were 200 years ago.
    In fact as recently as 50 years ago homosexuality was considered a crime in many states here in the US. I would say that the more immediate issue is that the UAE has still not embarked on the path to democracy and all discussions about freedoms or laws are meaningless unless ALL citizens (yes, including homosexuals!) are allowed to participate in the process.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
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  19.    #79  
    ^^

    That is my point. If you do take this to a vote in the UAE or any country in the area BTW they will agree to a huge majority that this act is a crime, therefore illeagal.

    Now, you think that homosexuality is OK and a right. But only because the people democratically said thats OK.
    What if people democratically said,no thats not right (even in the US). Will you respect that democracy or will you undemocratically yell "no YOUR wrong"?
    Thats a dellima.
    If you enforce some people's democracy on other people's democracy, it wouldn't be so democratic then, would it?
  20. #80  
    Democracy is not enough, else you just end up with a tyranny of the majority. You also need an independent judiciary to keep things fair, an active press to keep people honest, and a constitution to provide stability, so the fashion of the age cant just warp the country forever.

    Of course America has/had all of these things, which makes it even more of a mystery why they dont want this for the rest of the world combined. They ignore the world court, they act unilaterally on the world stage, ignoring the democratic process in the UN, and they act in secrecy, trying to suppress the press in other countries.

    I say bring on the One World Government and New World Order!!!!

    Surur
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