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  1.    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Well, we can begin with the first one: From the New Testament Introduction, Louis Berkhof, 1915
    Um, hoovs. This says matthew was the author of the gospel of matthew.

    Matthew did not know Jesus.

    lol
  2.    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Then how could they have been quoted by Clement in ~95 AD, Polycarp in ~125 AD and Justin Martyr in ~150 AD? Indeed, Justin Martyr quoted from all four Gospels and eleven of the epistles.
    Uh, because all of those are in the first hundred years after Jesus' death.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Um, hoovs. This says matthew was the author of the gospel of matthew.

    Matthew did not know Jesus.

    lol
    Matthew was one of the Twelve Apostles. Jesus called him away from a tax collectors booth to follow Him.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Uh, because all of those are in the first hundred years after Jesus' death.
    By that measure you'd also be able to say that the Gospels were written in the First Millennia after Jesus' death. So, lets be clear. The Gospels were all written before the close of the First Century AD.
  5.    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Matthew was one of the Twelve Apostles. Jesus called him away from a tax collectors booth to follow Him.
    My bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by wikepedia
    Although the document is anonymous, the authorship of this Gospel is traditionally ascribed to St. Matthew, a tax collector who became an apostle of Jesus. Of the twelve Apostles, Matthew would have made the most unpopular candidate for authorship aside from Judas Iscariot because he held the hated office of tax collector.[citation needed] However, early Church tradition unanimously agreed to Matthew's authorship.

    The relation of the gospels to one another is the subject of some debate. Like the authors of the other gospels, the author of Matthew wrote according to his own plans and aims and from his own point of view, while at the same time borrowing from other sources. According to the two-source hypothesis, the most commonly accepted solution to the synoptic problem, Matthew borrowed from both Mark and a hypothetical sayings collection, known by scholars as Q (for the German Quelle, meaning "source"). However, some scholars believe that Matthew was written first and that Mark borrowed from Matthew (see: Augustinian hypothesis and Griesbach hypothesis). Out of a total of 1071 verses, Matthew has 387 in common with Mark and the Gospel of Luke, 130 with Mark, 184 with Luke; only 370 being unique to itself.

    In The Four Gospels: A Study of Origins (1924), Burnett Hillman Streeter argued that a third source, referred to as M and also hypothetical, lies behind the material in Matthew that has no parallel in Mark or Luke. Through the remainder of the 20th century, there were various challenges and refinements of Streeter's hypothesis. For example, in his 1953 book The Gospel Before Mark, Pierson Parker posited an early version of Matthew (proto-Matthew) as the primary source of both Matthew and Mark, and Q source used by Matthew.

    Critical biblical scholars, like Herman N. Ridderbos in his book Matthew, do not consider the apostle Matthew to be the author of this Gospel. He cites a number of reasons such as the text being in Greek, not Aramaic, the Gospel's heavy reliance on Mark, and the lack of characteristics usually attributed to an eyewitness account [1]. Francis Write Beare agrees, and goes on to say in his book The Gospel according to Matthew "there are clear indications that it is a product of the second or third Christian generation. The traditional name of Matthew is retained in modern discussion only for convenience."[2]
  6.    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    By that measure you'd also be able to say that the Gospels were written in the First Millennia after Jesus' death. So, lets be clear. The Gospels were all written before the close of the First Century AD.
    Let's be clear, they were all written from oral tradition.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Uh, Hobbes.

    No writers of ANYTHING in the Bible ever met Jesus. There were no diaries kept. Nothing first hand there. It was all oral tradition.
    Your statement is false.

    You are correct that many of the NT writers did not meet Jesus, which why I stated:
    first hand experience with Jesus or with/from his disciples.
    Which means for the most part they either walked with Jesus or walked with his disciples. Big difference from unknown layers of oral tradition passing down an unknown amount of time with the Judas papers.

    Just so you know:

    Peter is the first disciple that Jesus asks in person to follow him.

    John was one of the twelve original disciples. Kind of hard to do without ever having met Jesus.

    Mark's family hosted the disciples in the Upper Room. He had initimate contact with the disciples and is strong suspected (aka circumstantial evidence) that he met Jesus himself.

    James was among the original twelve disciples,

    Paul is among the first followers of Jesus who never met him in person while he was alive. His life is a very interesting example for those of us who have never met Jesus in person.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Let's be clear, they were all written from oral tradition.
    I've presented some facts to support my claim... at least for Matthew. Have you done equally?
  9.    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Your statement is false.

    You are correct that many of the NT writers did not meet Jesus, which why I stated: Which means for the most part they either walked with Jesus or walked with his disciples. Big difference from unknown layers of oral tradition passing down an unknown amount of time with the Judas papers.

    Just so you know:

    Peter is the first disciple that Jesus asks in person to follow him.

    John was one of the twelve original disciples. Kind of hard to do without ever having met Jesus.

    Mark's family hosted the disciples in the Upper Room. He had initimate contact with the disciples and is strong suspected (aka circumstantial evidence) that he met Jesus himself.

    James was among the original twelve disciples,

    Paul is among the first followers of Jesus who never met him in person while he was alive. His life is a very interesting example for those of us who have never met Jesus in person.
    Where's the gospel of Peter?

    John didn't write John

    I stand corrected after having looked at Wikepedia, Mark did not write Mark.

    Wheres the gospel of James?

    Paul used to be called Saul until he was hit by a vision telling him about Jesus.
  10. cardio's Avatar
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    #90  
    I don't even try to correct people when they say that none of the authors of the Bible knew or lived at the same time as Jesus. When something that basic is not understood, anything of deeper substance is going to be a waste of my time.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  11.    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I don't even try to correct people when they say that none of the authors of the Bible knew or lived at the same time as Jesus. When something that basic is not understood, anything of deeper substance is going to be a waste of my time.
    Oops, never met Jesus.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    And all of the Gospels, including this one were written in the few hundred years after Jesus' Death.
    Please cite your facts of several hundred years after Jesu's death.

    The first three Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, Hebrews, James, Peter's Epistles were written in the period between about 50 - 65 AD. The Gospel of John, John's Epistles, Jude and Revelation were written between about 85 - 100 AD.

    Which puts all of the NT written within 70 years of so from his death, a far stretch of your claim of hundreds of years.
  13.    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I don't even try to correct people when they say that none of the authors of the Bible knew or lived at the same time as Jesus. When something that basic is not understood, anything of deeper substance is going to be a waste of my time.
    Which one met Jesus there my intellectual friend?
  14. cardio's Avatar
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    #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Oops, never met Jesus.
    OK, met vs know changes nothing.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  15.    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Please cite your facts of several hundred years after Jesu's death.

    The first three Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, Hebrews, James, Peter's Epistles were written in the period between about 50 - 65 AD. The Gospel of John, John's Epistles, Jude and Revelation were written between about 85 - 100 AD.

    Which puts all of the NT written within 70 years of so from his death, a far stretch of your claim of hundreds of years.
    I think I said within the first few hundred years.

    As far as looking for evidence, I am sitting here writing software at the same time. Look at Wikepedia, top paragraph of the page for each of the gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

    Also note that Historians do not always accept what the church claims.
  16.    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    OK, met vs know changes nothing.
    mkay, so which one knew Jesus?
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    mkay, so which one knew Jesus?
    Matthew and John. Mark wrote on behalf of Peter who knew Jesus and Luke was a disciple of all of the Apostles, who knew Jesus, as well as Paul. So, the works were either written by those who knew Jesus who on behalf of those who knew Jesus by those who knew them.
  18.    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Mark wrote on behalf of Peter who knew Jesus and Luke was a disciple of all of the Apostles, who knew Jesus, as well as Paul. So, the works were either written by those who knew Jesus who on behalf of those who knew Jesus by those who knew them.
    Even if true, this is consistent with what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze
    Matthew and John.
    Here's John.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikepedia
    Authorship of the Johannine works
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    El Greco's rendition of John the Apostle shows the traditional author of the Johannine works as a young man.The Johannine works are the Gospel of John, the first, second, and third epistles of John, and the Book of Revelation. All five show certain similarities in theological background, but also certain differences, leading to the current debate.

    All of these books of the New Testament have traditionally been attributed to John the Apostle, assumed to be identical to John the Evangelist, except for 2 John, which was officially regarded as distinct since the Council of Rome; however, especially since the rise of higher criticism, the question of the authorship of the Johannine works has been disputed. Before the rise of higher criticism, the question of authorship of the five works was hardly breached. However, the decree of the Council of Rome (382) differentiates the Gospel, first epistle and Book of Revelation, which it attributes to John the Apostle, from the second and third epistle, which it attributes to "John, a priest". See John the Presbyter.

    Today the texts continue to be approached separately; viewpoints on the issue of authorship range from affirming the authorship of the Apostle, to affirming the authorship of another author, called "John" for convenience, to theories of group authorship.....

    Most scholars date the writing of the Gospel to the last four or five years of the first century. If this is the case, and John the Apostle is the principal author, he would have been some 90 years old at the time of composition, which was a very remarkable age in the first century,
    Here's Matthew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Authorship
    Although the document is anonymous, the authorship of this Gospel is traditionally ascribed to St. Matthew, a tax collector who became an apostle of Jesus. Of the twelve Apostles, Matthew would have made the most unpopular candidate for authorship aside from Judas Iscariot because he held the hated office of tax collector.[citation needed] However, early Church tradition unanimously agreed to Matthew's authorship.

    The relation of the gospels to one another is the subject of some debate. Like the authors of the other gospels, the author of Matthew wrote according to his own plans and aims and from his own point of view, while at the same time borrowing from other sources. According to the two-source hypothesis, the most commonly accepted solution to the synoptic problem, Matthew borrowed from both Mark and a hypothetical sayings collection, known by scholars as Q (for the German Quelle, meaning "source"). However, some scholars believe that Matthew was written first and that Mark borrowed from Matthew (see: Augustinian hypothesis and Griesbach hypothesis). Out of a total of 1071 verses, Matthew has 387 in common with Mark and the Gospel of Luke, 130 with Mark, 184 with Luke; only 370 being unique to itself.

    In The Four Gospels: A Study of Origins (1924), Burnett Hillman Streeter argued that a third source, referred to as M and also hypothetical, lies behind the material in Matthew that has no parallel in Mark or Luke. Through the remainder of the 20th century, there were various challenges and refinements of Streeter's hypothesis. For example, in his 1953 book The Gospel Before Mark, Pierson Parker posited an early version of Matthew (proto-Matthew) as the primary source of both Matthew and Mark, and Q source used by Matthew.

    Critical biblical scholars, like Herman N. Ridderbos in his book Matthew, do not consider the apostle Matthew to be the author of this Gospel. He cites a number of reasons such as the text being in Greek, not Aramaic, the Gospel's heavy reliance on Mark, and the lack of characteristics usually attributed to an eyewitness account [1]. Francis Write Beare agrees, and goes on to say in his book The Gospel according to Matthew "there are clear indications that it is a product of the second or third Christian generation. The traditional name of Matthew is retained in modern discussion only for convenience."[2]
    I cant see where the encylocpedia entry for either one says they are the authors.
    Last edited by theBlaze74; 05/10/2006 at 02:59 PM.
  19. cardio's Avatar
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    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    mkay, so which one knew Jesus?
    OK, one example, in the original manuscripts the verse we have numbered as John 1:14 the author "beheld Christ's glory", don't think the author used TIVO, and beheld (or saw) Christ's glory at a later date. Several passages indicate an eyewitness account of actions. Numerous other times in the book the present tense is used. The author lists all the disciples except John by name. You can accept it or argue about it with others, not me.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  20.    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    OK, one example, in the original manuscripts the verse we have numbered as John 1:14 the author "beheld Christ's glory", don't think the author used TIVO, and beheld (or saw) Christ's glory at a later date. Several passages indicate an eyewitness account of actions. Numerous other times in the book the present tense is used. The author lists all the disciples except John by name. You can accept it or argue about it with others, not me.
    Lol, wow what a literary mind. In literature a point of view is the related experience of the narrator, not that of the author.
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