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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    ...But you're right, none of the authors of the New Testament works, even the gospels had even met Jesus, In fact most of the earliest works of the new testament were written 300 years or so after Jesus died.
    Who do you understand to be the writers of the gospels of Matthew and John, the letters by Peter, John and Jude, or the book of the Revelation?
  2. vw2002's Avatar
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       #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Because God demands faith, not ambivalence. The attitude you hold towards religion clearly shows you dont have real faith in absolute higher powers. You are just in it for the moral guide. Stop deluding yourself.

    Surur
    you`re full of it, surur. many, but clearly not all, religions demand faith as well as the ability to discriminate right from wrong. incidentally, this is a little off topic, but i have read about your position on Israel and the suicide bombing issue discussed earlier in this forum. you are quite the one to talk about religious attitude and true faith in absolute higher powers. you`re a sick puppy.

    what exactly are YOU in it for, pray tell, if you purportedly support suicide bombing? YOU are seriously going to lecture ME about how to be a person of good faith? the views you have on religion are a joke when you consider that you are behind those who go out and kill innocent women and children. you say god demands faith, but does god also condone ambivalence toward human life at times as well?

    I dont think I am the one deluding myself here when i read about tendencies such as yours. in light of them, i have no choice but to discount much if not all of your claims regarding religion. but it does make sense why you take the position you do in this thread, because, from what ive read in the past, you have more in common with the crazy lady in the video than with someone of good faith.
    Last edited by vw2002; 05/08/2006 at 11:18 PM.
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       #83  
    below is one of surur`s posts. someone who supports beheading has absolutely no place telling people how they should conduct themselves with religion... period


    "originally posted by surur....

    I dont support religiously motivated terrorism. I do support people fighting for their home-land whichever way they can. If this means blowing up busses and restaurants to make Israel less palatable for the Jewish immigrants, so be it. If they did not want a fight they should not have stolen the land. If it means slitting some-one's throat on TV to make foreign contractors think twice before entering Iraq and providing logistical support to American troops and their collaborators, so be it."

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...&page=46&pp=20
    Last edited by vw2002; 05/08/2006 at 11:02 PM.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    you`re full of it, surur. many, but clearly not all, religions demand faith as well as the ability to discriminate right from wrong. incidentally, this is a little off topic, but i have read about your position on Israel and the suicide bombing issue discussed earlier in this forum. you are quite the one to talk about religious attitude and true faith in absolute higher powers. you`re a sick puppy.

    what exactly are YOU in it for, pray tell, if you purportedly support suicide bombing? YOU are going to lecture ME about how to be a person of good faith? the views you have on religion are a joke when you consider that you are behind those who go out and kill innocent women and children. you say god demands faith, but does god also condone ambivalence toward human life at times as well?

    I dont think I am the one deluding myself here when i read about tendencies such as yours. in light of them, i have no choice but to discount much if not all of your claims regarding religion. but it does make sense why you take the position you do in this thread, because, from what ive read in the past, you have more in common with the crazy lady in the video than with someone of good faith.
    I cant see what your posts have to do with the topic at hand, apart from your attempt to tarnish the credibility of another poster who has posted a contradicotry idea to yours.

    For someone who seems to have such a good handle on just exactly what god wants, and jesus taught, that came of a little hostile.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Who do you understand to be the writers of the gospels of Matthew and John, the letters by Peter, John and Jude, or the book of the Revelation?
    What? Who wrote Matthew and John? Um, i am not an Historian, but I'm gonna guess Matthew and John. Final answer.
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       #86  
    that was hostile? I suppose he was being polite when he was tarnishing my view of religion?
    I gotta have more cowbell
  7. #87  
    lol, ok, well the point i have been making is that, it is very difficult or impossible to objectively define a set of universal standards of righteousness

    the fact that a set of beliefs anger or even disgust us, do not invalidate those beliefs, when speaking of religion, we have the luxury of being immune to disproof

    in fact, would argue that the negative feelings we have toward the crazy lady in the video for breaking our social contract, would pale in comparison to the anger and hatred stirred up by Jesus, especially toward the end of his life

    the fact that western civilization has come to embrace most if not all of his ideas simply makes you feel like they has always been. they have not
  8. vw2002's Avatar
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       #88  
    fair enough, blaze. I know where you're coming from there. It certainly is difficult to establish a universal system, being that there are so many perspectives on what is acceptable around the world.

    its true that new belief systems often come as shocks or insults to the established doctrines of the time, since by nature we, at first, tend to dislike change.

    I do see your point in that certain modern religious priniciples were not always present, so the beliefs which were held before jesus' time, however harsh or brutal they may have been, seemed correct to the people then because they were raised with them.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Follow the chain:
    1. The manuscripts are authentic enabling verification of the translation of those manuscripts.
    2. The content of the manuscripts are corroborated in archaeology (stay tuned for the religious importance of that)
    3. Based on this we can confirm the geographic and generational diversity of the text
    4. On that basis do we grant significance to the cohesiveness of the varied writings, especially as they relate vividly accurate predictive text concerning Jesus (without the verification of the authencity of the manscripts, one could simply claim that the writings were made after the fact and presented as "prophecy")
    5. In short, we have text coming from people who could not have interacted with each other, that synched together and their focal point and dissecting point was theone historical figure Jesus.
    6. As such, we ascribe the the text is divine in origin rather than merely the musings of men
    You refuse to see the obvious: religious stories have a real-life background, so obviously they are not totally wrong historically. Indeed there were nomadic tribes living in the desert, Mount Sinai exists (I've been there, nice place, though I prefer the surrounding mountains because there are less if any tourists), but that does not prove at all that god gave Moses the 10 Commandments.

    It is fairly possible or even likely that a charismatic Jew called Jesus lived about 30 A.D., that he had followers who told his story (according to their interpretation) and passed on that information orally for a few decades until it was written down in what we now call the Gospels. There is nothing devine or surprising about this. Every religion has historical sources and a real-life background and stories told in old books, that doesn't make all those stories real. Of course everybody is free to believe them, but that's a faith thing.
    Believe it or not, for many years it was only the jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah. The message was not taken to non-jews initially. Further, there There are those who hold the view that the Jewish leaders rejection of Jesus was more political than analytical. Their expectation of the Messiah was that of a warrior/deliverer (incidentally, the manner in which we expect the Messiah's next appearance at which time they will recognize Him as we do).
    Jews have volumes of literature showing that Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I am not saying they are right and you are wrong. You may disagree, but again, this is based on faith, not facts. Or do you think Jews are too stupid to see the facts?

    http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-j...sus-index.html
    Last edited by clulup; 05/09/2006 at 07:05 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #90  
    vw2002, dont even go there. I'm questioning and discussing your views, I had enough of discussing mine.

    The fact is that you think you are a Christian, but believe you can decide yourself what to believe. Very New Age, but unfortuanately not very Christian.

    Surur
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Jews have volumes of literature showing that Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I am not saying they are right and you are wrong. You may disagree, but again, this is based on faith, not facts. Or do you think Jews are too stupid to see the facts?

    http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-j...sus-index.html
    lol, it just sank in that he is attempting to lay out a proof that Jesus is the Messiah and the Gospels were written by God.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Or do you think Jews are too stupid to see the facts?
    That's called baiting.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    That's called baiting.
    lol, he's sniffing the bait, it's killing him
  14. #94  
    Statement 1:
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    But you're right, none of the authors of the New Testament works, even the gospels had even met Jesus, In fact most of the earliest works of the new testament were written 300 years or so after Jesus died.
    Statement 2:
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    What? Who wrote Matthew and John? Um, i am not an Historian, but I'm gonna guess Matthew and John. Final answer.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    You refuse to see the obvious: religious stories have a real-life background, so obviously they are not totally wrong historically. Indeed there were nomadic tribes living in the desert, Mount Sinai exists (I've been there, nice place, though I prefer the surrounding mountains because there are less if any tourists), but that does not prove at all that god gave Moses the 10 Commandments.

    It is fairly possible or even likely that a charismatic Jew called Jesus lived about 30 A.D., that he had followers who told his story (according to their interpretation) and passed on that information orally for a few decades until it was written down in what we now call the Gospels. There is nothing devine or surprising about this. Every religion has historical sources and a real-life background and stories told in old books, that doesn't make all those stories real. Of course everybody is free to believe them, but that's a faith thing.
    Jews have volumes of literature showing that Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I am not saying they are right and you are wrong. You may disagree, but again, this is based on faith, not facts. Or do you think Jews are too stupid to see the facts?

    http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-j...sus-index.html
    You totally ignored the case I made. I am learning to refine the presentation so I'll give you another shot:

    1. The so called old testament contains text that describes aspects of Jesus' life with precision
    2. We know by examination of manuscripts that: (a) they were written well before Jesus was born; (b) they were written my multiple authors who did not know each other as they were separated by time and geography

    The predictive nature of the writings and the statistical probability of those predictions coming to fruition in the life of one person lend credibility to the text being divinely inspired rather than mere human intuition.

    Given that foundation, it is then reasonable to treat the entirety of the text with a view of divine inspiration.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    lol, it just sank in that he is attempting to lay out a proof that Jesus is the Messiah and the Gospels were written by God.
    Christian thought considers the text inspired by God.

    The facts support the supposition that Jesus was the Messiah. That does not preclude the fact the reasonable people with access to the same information disagree.
  17. #97  
    omg, you are saying in post 94 that I have contradicted myself because the authors of the Gospels was God?

    lol, Shopharim, in just a few short posts, you have proven the existance of God, pointed out to us his divinely inspired words, and proven to us the one true religion of the world

    you're truly a genius
  18. #98  
    Its very easy to fulfill a prophesy if you make up the story to fit the prophesy afterward, and do not recount inconvenient details.

    Surur
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Its very easy to fulfill a prophesy if you make up the story to fit the prophesy afterward, and do not recount inconvenient details.

    Surur
    It is 100% silly to be having a conversation here attempting to "prove" or "disprove" if Jesus is the Messiah, or if there is a god, or what God wants, or where God's words are, or which works were divinely inspired from heaven. I am loosing IQ points for even being involved in this.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    It is 100% silly to be having a conversation here attempting to "prove" or "disprove" if Jesus is the Messiah, or if there is a god, or what God wants, or where God's words are, or which works were divinely inspired from heaven. I am loosing IQ points for even being involved in this.
    I believe shopharim is not trying to prove so much as to address your point that religion is never based in fact:

    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    i think the key phrase blaze introduced is "not based in fact." there is an underlying assumption that religion is inherently based on presumption, assumption, superstition, etc. rather than observation.
    This is why shopharim doesn't have to say that "Jews aren't smart enough". He just has to show that at least one religion is based in enough historical fact to make a reasonable leap of faith.
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