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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Did you take time to read the whole story?
    How is the ending of the story relevant?

    vw said that if God asked him to kill his children
    Quote Originally Posted by vw
    a logical person should conclude that the belief is irrational and abandon the faith.
    Anyway, the point is. Aren't you simply adopting an ideology that fits your own cultural sensibilities? Is that religion? Do you actually believe it? Does the girl in the video? Does Sean Hannity?
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    How is the ending of the story relevant?

    vw said that if God asked him to kill his children
    The ending is everything about the story, Blaze. If you're going to use it as an example of a person who believed God wanted him to kill his child then you ought to include the part that where it said God told him not to. Otherwise its not a fair analogy.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    The ending is everything about the story, Blaze. If you're going to use it as an example of a person who believed God wanted him to kill his child then you ought to include the part that where it said God told him not to. Otherwise its not a fair analogy.
    You just described how the story is relevant to you, not how it is relevant in this context, and you know it.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    You just described how the story is relevant to you, not how it is relevant in this context, and you know it.
    Not true. It is wrong to take the story of Abraham and Isaac as merely an example of a person who believed God wanted him to kill his child. Its wrong not just as a Christian or a Jew, but as a person who reads.
  5. #45  
    Anyway vw, the point is. Aren't you simply adopting an ideology that fits your own cultural sensibilities? Is that religion? Do you actually believe it? Does the girl in the video? Does Sean Hannity? Aren't you immortal? Doesn't the will of your God outweigh your cultural sensibilities?
  6. #46  
    Anyways... The moral of the story is that you need to understand the moral of the story. Otherwise you'll just end up misrepresenting the story.
  7. #47  
    Hoovs could quote
    10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

    Deuteronomy 18:10
    Or Blaze could quote

    1 Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." 2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.
    3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."

    5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.

    7 Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. 8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?"

    9 He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.' 10 So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."

    11 Then the man in linen with the writing kit at his side brought back word, saying, "I have done as you commanded."

    Ezekiel 9:1-11
    Last edited by Franko515; 05/07/2006 at 04:34 AM.
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  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Franko515
    Or Blaze could quote
    You forgot to mention Ezekiel 8:1-4 which basically prefaces the whole thing as a vision.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    You forgot to mention Ezekiel 8:1-4 which basically prefaces the whole thing as a vision.

    Didnt think i needed to mention it seein how that how God spoke to people in the bible "visions"

    vision

    (Luke 1:22), a vivid apparition, not a dream (Luke 24:23; Acts 26:19; 2
    Cor. 12:1).
    Wisdom sheds light on the knowledge you have accumulated

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  10. #50  
    Anyway vw, the point is. Aren't you simply adopting an ideology that fits your own cultural sensibilities? Is that religion? Do you actually believe it? Does the girl in the video? Does Sean Hannity? Aren't you immortal? Doesn't the will of your God outweigh your cultural sensibilities?
  11. vw2002's Avatar
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       #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Anyway vw, the point is. Aren't you simply adopting an ideology that fits your own cultural sensibilities? Is that religion? Do you actually believe it? Does the girl in the video? Does Sean Hannity? Aren't you immortal? Doesn't the will of your God outweigh your cultural sensibilities?

    what if my religion does just happen to fit my values and cultural sensibilities? is there a problem with that being a coincidence? what, for you to consider something a religion there must be some bizarre outdated belief system or support of public executions, sacrifice of all firstborns or medieval witchcraft involved? otherwise its not a religion? blaze, come on.

    has anyone on earth ever had a direct link to god? arent all religions simply man`s interpretation of what he thinks god is? and if so, isnt religion therefore a system of beliefs which had fit man`s interpretation of god or the cultural sensibilities at that time of its establishment?

    Personally, I think you take the bible`s stories to be lessons - did all of the stories in the bible actually take place? I dont know for sure. thats where personal choice and faith come in, . but thats also where the range of belief in religion will vary, some will believe 100% of it happened, others will believe 75% actually happened, and so on. everyone`s experience is going to be slightly different.

    i think you take important lessons a religion may teach in order to help you live a good life. having a religion does not mean you must also commit or publicly support acts which you dont agree with simply to be considered a true member - thats not a healthy religion, blaze, thats called a CULT.

    you know there are moderates and orthodox jews. are you going to say that one group taylored their religion to fit their sensibilities while the other is the one true religion? since there are catholics, protestants, and baptists... are you saying that at some point these groups split from one accepted faith and taylored different religions to fit their unique belief systems? is one better than the other? are they legitimate religions then?

    so are all of those people just adopting different ideologies to fit their own value systems? would orthodox jews claim this against the jews who have a casual belief in God? what is wrong with a person who wants to keep a spiritual relationship with god rather than one that involves the church?

    you seem to be saying that for one to have a religion it must involve some sort of medieval practice or ritual or outdated belief. I differ with that. everything evolves. i would think religion should be no different. it shows growth - which is the point behind religion isnt it? to become a better, more enlightened person?
    Last edited by vw2002; 05/07/2006 at 12:22 PM.
  12. #52  
    If God is objectively real, you could only satisfy IT by its own criteria. And your only guide to the criteria of the God of Abraham and Jesus is the Bible. You seem to believe that you can serve God in any way you chose. That probably means you dont really believe in God at all.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 05/07/2006 at 01:28 PM.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    what if my religion does just happen to fit my values and cultural sensibilities? is there a problem with that being a coincidence?
    Certainly not, you have chosen an alternate belief system, one that does not require a basis in fact. Just as all of us are free to do. I am just pointing out that we tend to belittle those who have chosen belief systems that contradict our cultural sensebilites.
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    what, for you to consider something a religion there must be some bizarre outdated belief system or support of public executions, sacrifice of all firstborns or medieval witchcraft involved? otherwise its not a religion? blaze, come on.
    "bizarre", "outdated", "sacrifice of firstborns", "medieval witchcraft"? It was from the Bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    has anyone on earth ever had a direct link to god? arent all religions simply man`s interpretation of what he thinks god is? and if so, isnt religion therefore a system of beliefs which had fit man`s interpretation of god or the cultural sensibilities at that time of its establishment?
    Well that is an interesting point, but don't organized religions claim to know the will of God? How he wants you to live. What he wants you to do, and not do. Isn't that kind of the point. Do you have a religion without knowing the will of God?
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    Personally, I think you take the bible`s stories to be lessons - did all of the stories in the bible actually take place? I dont know for sure. thats where personal choice and faith come in, . but thats also where the range of belief in religion will vary, some will believe 100% of it happened, others will believe 75% actually happened, and so on. everyone`s experience is going to be slightly different.
    Well this is another interesting point. Not only do we adopt the ideology that fits our most current cultural sensebilities, but we are even free to modify the ideology if it is not a perfect fit. I wonder if the pope would agree with that? or Sean Hannity.

    But even if Abraham's story never happened, and it was just a lesson as you put it. What was the lesson?

    Was it that God does not hate children because he eventually told Abraham not to sacrifice his son? Or was it that God wanted to test Abraham? To see if Abraham truly believed. After all, isn't Isaac immortal?
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    i think you take important lessons a religion may teach in order to help you live a good life. having a religion does not mean you must also commit or publicly support acts which you dont agree with simply to be considered a true member - thats not a healthy religion, blaze, thats called a CULT.
    The first part of what you said is exactly my personal view. "you take important lessons a religion may teach in order to help you live a good life", but the second part about your definition of a cult... You are saying if the belief system violates your personal cultural morays, or even those of the time, then it is a cult? Wouldn't this make Jesus' religion a Cult?
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    you know there are moderates and orthodox jews. are you going to say that one group taylored their religion to fit their sensibilities while the other is the one true religion? since there are catholics, protestants, and baptists... are you saying that at some point these groups split from one accepted faith and taylored different religions to fit their unique belief systems? is one better than the other? are they legitimate religions then?

    so are all of those people just adopting different ideologies to fit their own value systems? would orthodox jews claim this against the jews who have a casual belief in God? what is wrong with a person who wants to keep a spiritual relationship with god rather than one that involves the church?

    you seem to be saying that for one to have a religion it must involve some sort of medieval practice or ritual or outdated belief. I differ with that. everything evolves. i would think religion should be no different. it shows growth - which is the point behind religion isnt it? to become a better, more enlightened person?
    I wouldn't disagree with most of what you have said, but perhaps the pope would, perhaps Hannity would. Perhaps Abraham would.
    Quote Originally Posted by sursur
    If God is objectively real, you could only satisfy IT by its own criteria. And your only guide to the criteria of the God of Abraham and Jesus is the Bible. You seem to believe that you can serve God in any way you chose. That probably means you dont really believe in God at all.
    hehe see vw.. you have your first one already.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Anyways... The moral of the story is that you need to understand the moral of the story. Otherwise you'll just end up misrepresenting the story.
    Firstly, I never claimed that I was attempting to convey the moral of this story, I was attempting to illustrate my point, but as you often do, you are side tracking and misdirecting.

    But fine, what is the moral of the story hoovs?

    The moral of the story is that God really does not hate babies after all?

    Isn't the moral of the story that we should trust and obey God no matter how crazy it sounds to us?
    Last edited by theBlaze74; 05/07/2006 at 04:56 PM.
  15. vw2002's Avatar
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       #55  
    oh for pete's sake!!! so are you saying that the crazy woman in the video, as insane as she is, is in the right simply because she she is following some bizarre interpretation of the her bible? her religion gives her the excuse to behave the way she does? is that your moral here?

    so even if someone wakes up one day realizing that their leaders are insane, you think they must continue to blindly follow the lunacy because they were indocrinated as members under them?!!
    I gotta have more cowbell
  16. #56  
    Quite the opposite! Me thinks the omnipotent Blaze is inferring that all religion is bunk.
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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    shopharim, if the mythical JC would return to again to ask that question today, an astounding number of self-righteous hands would confidently declare their own purity.

    For me hypocrisy is perhaps the gravest of sins (far worse than lust, envy, avarice, gluttony, sloth, pride, and wrath)
    I'm sure the historical JC would likewise find a significant number smugly confident in their own righteousness.
  18. #58  
    i think the key phrase blaze introduced is "not based in fact." there is an underlying assumption that religion is inherently based on presumption, assumption, superstition, etc. rather than observation.

    If you view the M.A.P.S. (Manuscripts, Archaeology, Predictions, Statistical probability of those predictions uniquely coming to fruition in the life of one historical figure) you will find that the biblical text is rooted in fact, and worthy of consideration as a basis for how to live.
    I think on further study of the Bible, you will discover that Jesus did not start "christianity." His purpose was singular and clear -- pay the price for our sin.
  19. vw2002's Avatar
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       #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo
    Quite the opposite! Me thinks the omnipotent Blaze is inferring that all religion is bunk.

    doesnt bother me any. i keep an open mind with religion.. i dont buy into any one faith 100%. in my view all religions hold some truth as well as other things to be taken with a grain of salt. and if someone wants to say that approach isnt really a religion or that they dont think i believe in god at all... i really dont care.

    the way i look at it is... you can be a so-called devout baptist or catholic or presbyterian and also be a terrible person - case in point is that woman in the video - or you can also keep religion in check, with moderation and lead a healthy, balanced life, without forcefeeding your views on anyone else. i prefer the latter.
    Last edited by vw2002; 05/08/2006 at 12:13 AM.
  20. vw2002's Avatar
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       #60  
    "Originally Posted by sursur
    If God is objectively real, you could only satisfy IT by its own criteria. And your only guide to the criteria of the God of Abraham and Jesus is the Bible. You seem to believe that you can serve God in any way you chose. That probably means you dont really believe in God at all. "







    thats nonsense, surur. how do you presume to know what i believe? just because i take a moderate view on a religion doesnt mean i dont really believe in God. who are you to make a claim like that? please. thats utterly ridiculous

    as long as you live a life that keeps your family on the right track while simultaneously helping or contributing benevolently to the lives of others around you, without willfully harming anyone, im sure that would be looked upon as a life of good service.
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