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  1.    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    There lies the challenge. What is equal among all who apply. If you use education then many 3rd world countries are being treated equal or fairly. If you sponsorship, then all first gen immigrants are not be treated equal or fairly. If you financing, then if you are not from a rich country or family you are not being treated equal or fairly. If you use health, then those seeking better medical aid or those that do not medical aid are not being treated equal or fairly. If you use professional skills, then those from labor based economies are not being treated equal or fairly.

    How do you have a equal or fair immigration system based on points with out being discriminatory?
    Why stop there? There are some that would say that the true "fairness" is to enter every applicant in a lottery and choose them randomly. I think I made it clear that my idea of fairness and equality, was at least evaluating each potential immigrant on the basis of his or her own merits, not his or her nationality.
  2.    #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    If adopted a liberal refugee or asylum policy without the same screen as immigrants, then secure becomes a huge issue.
    Huh? I dont think anybody advocates a policy devoid of security screening.
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Huh? I dont think anybody advocates a policy devoid of security screening.
    So then how do we screen those millions of illegals already here, and what do we do with them in the intrim years while we attempt to screen them? Give them a free pass?

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
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  4.    #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    So then how do we screen those millions of illegals already here, and what do we do with them in the intrim years while we attempt to screen them? Give them a free pass?
    I think thats why George W wants to give them documentation. Well, that and cheap desporate laborers for Texas Ranchers.
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Why stop there? There are some that would say that the true "fairness" is to enter every applicant in a lottery and choose them randomly. I think I made it clear that my idea of fairness and equality, was at least evaluating each potential immigrant on the basis of his or her own merits, not his or her nationality.
    Blazerboy - what's your nationality (just want to be sure it gets "fair" treatment in the system).
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  6. #166  
    Thats a statement, and a poor attempt at stereotyping. You're avoiding the question.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  7.    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    Thats a statement, and a poor attempt at stereotyping. You're avoiding the question.
    HuH?
  8. #168  
    Blaze, you weren't asked what you thought George Bush wanted to do with them and why. You were asked what YOU thought should be done with them.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    HuH?
    I'll type slow since I know you read what you want to.

    How do we screen those millions of illegals already here, and what do we do with them in the intrim years while we attempt to screen them?

    This is a question looking for an answer. It does not require a statement of G.W.'s ranch labor problem.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    There lies the challenge. What is equal among all who apply. If you use education then many 3rd world countries are being treated equal or fairly. If you sponsorship, then all first gen immigrants are not be treated equal or fairly. If you financing, then if you are not from a rich country or family you are not being treated equal or fairly. If you use health, then those seeking better medical aid or those that do not medical aid are not being treated equal or fairly. If you use professional skills, then those from labor based economies are not being treated equal or fairly.

    How do you have a equal or fair immigration system based on points with out being discriminatory?

    If adopted a liberal refugee or asylum policy without the same screen as immigrants, then secure becomes a huge issue.
    I get to feeling nauseus hobbes when I realize that I might be to the right of you on this but --

    absolute fairness is not a requirement for admitting immigrants. The bottom line for deciding who to allow to migrate for economic reasons is whether they're an asset and not a burden. Language proficiency and education ought be the main criteria.

    The societal costs on multiple levels of absorbing, integrating and recognizing a second language 3rd world cultural group during the last twenty years have been huge.

    Morality applies to genuine political asylum seekers who need a haven of conscience -- not economic migrants.
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  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Why stop there? There are some that would say that the true "fairness" is to enter every applicant in a lottery and choose them randomly. I think I made it clear that my idea of fairness and equality, was at least evaluating each potential immigrant on the basis of his or her own merits, not his or her nationality.
    I love talking details with you!

    Again you dodged the issue all together....that I was talking merits as well. I will try it again....But merits often times come with only opportunities. Opportunities are often times more available in richer countries. So poorer countries very could get the shaft with your proposal. This is the issue and details that you continually fail to address.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Why stop there? There are some that would say that the true "fairness" is to enter every applicant in a lottery and choose them randomly. I think I made it clear that my idea of fairness and equality, was at least evaluating each potential immigrant on the basis of his or her own merits, not his or her nationality.
    Just curious, do you think affirmative action is a good thing?
  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I get to feeling nauseus Hobbes when I realize that I might be to the right of you on this but --

    absolute fairness is not a requirement for admitting immigrants. The bottom line for deciding who to allow to migrate for economic reasons is whether they're an asset and not a burden. Language proficiency and education ought be the main criteria.

    The societal costs on multiple levels of absorbing, integrating and recognizing a second language 3rd world cultural group during the last twenty years have been huge.

    Morality applies to genuine political asylum seekers who need a haven of conscience -- not economic migrants.
    No Barye, I think we are actually in line with this together....I was addressing Blaze proposal on face value with the same criteria he is criticizing the current system with. but I cannot seem to get that point across, no matter how many different ways I say the same thing or different examples I try to use.
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    #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I get to feeling nauseus hobbes when I realize that I might be to the right of you on this but --

    absolute fairness is not a requirement for admitting immigrants. The bottom line for deciding who to allow to migrate for economic reasons is whether they're an asset and not a burden. Language proficiency and education ought be the main criteria.

    The societal costs on multiple levels of absorbing, integrating and recognizing a second language 3rd world cultural group during the last twenty years have been huge.

    Morality applies to genuine political asylum seekers who need a haven of conscience -- not economic migrants.
    I agree Barye. (man that's like 4 times we have agreed on something)
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  15.    #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    Blaze, you weren't asked what you thought George Bush wanted to do with them and why. You were asked what YOU thought should be done with them.
    Haven't really decided.
  16.    #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I get to feeling nauseus hobbes when I realize that I might be to the right of you on this but --

    absolute fairness is not a requirement for admitting immigrants. The bottom line for deciding who to allow to migrate for economic reasons is whether they're an asset and not a burden. Language proficiency and education ought be the main criteria.

    The societal costs on multiple levels of absorbing, integrating and recognizing a second language 3rd world cultural group during the last twenty years have been huge.

    Morality applies to genuine political asylum seekers who need a haven of conscience -- not economic migrants.
    shivvverrrrr, yeah good point

    pretty sure i have heard this somewhere before
    Last edited by theBlaze74; 05/03/2006 at 01:17 PM.
  17.    #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I love talking details with you!
    Again you dodged the issue all together....that I was talking merits as well. I will try it again....But merits often times come with only opportunities. Opportunities are often times more available in richer countries. So poorer countries very could get the shaft with your proposal. This is the issue and details that you continually fail to address.
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I was addressing Blaze proposal on face value with the same criteria he is criticizing the current system with. but I cannot seem to get that point across, no matter how many different ways I say the same thing or different examples I try to use.
    I cant remember saying anything about making sure poorer countries benefit from our immigration policy. I think I said that our policy should be metered out equally based on the individual merit of each applicant. You really cannot stop trying to form both sides of the argument can you?
  18. #178  
    I am not working both sides of the argument. You have said that the current system discriminates against many nationalities. I said that your system in practice could do the same thing as the merits you have proposed are more available to richer countries would generally not include the countries that you have a concern about in the current system.

    I am not playing both sides, I am saying that your system may have the same or worse net result that you are unhappy with the current system.
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I cant remember saying anything about making sure poorer countries benefit from our immigration policy. I think I said that our policy should be metered out equally based on the individual merit of each applicant. You really cannot stop trying to form both sides of the argument can you?

    So a class based structure would be better than a race based structure? Mexico isn't going to be happy about this one either, but at least our friend from Finland still won't havemuch of a problem.
    Trust me, I'm a producer.
  20.    #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Just curious, do you think affirmative action is a good thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Blaze, could it be that it takes longer for people from China, India, Mexico and the Philippines to get visas than anyone else is because there are many, many more of them applying for visas? And, could it be that, far from being racist, those in charge of issuing visas are just trying to level the playing field for people from all countries? In fact, there's more racial equity in this kind of a system than in a "first come, first serve" system.
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    For someone who talks as much as you do about personal responsibility and accountability, i am suprised that you are taking this stance.
    I think we already touched on that topic hoovs, for a civil libertarian, who talks so much about personal accountability, and personal responsibility, and against affirmative action it certainly is suprising to see your new stance.
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