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  1. #301  
    I haven't check in the thread for a few days, but it seems like it's exactly where I left it and I still don't understand Blaze's point is.
    Trust me, I'm a producer.
  2.    #302  
    Quote Originally Posted by mymellowman
    I haven't check in the thread for a few days, but it seems like it's exactly where I left it and I still don't understand Blaze's point is.
    Our immigration policy should be such that each prospective immigrant should be judged on the basis of his individual personal merit, not on the basis of his nationality. I can see how that might be confusing.
  3. #303  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Our immigration policy should be such that each prospective immigrant should be judged on the basis of his individual personal merit, not on the basis of his nationality.
    Unless his nationality is that of an under-represented minority.
  4.    #304  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Unless his nationality is that of an under-represented minority.
    Wrong, and you're attempting to cloud the clarity of my idea which is why you brought affirmative action in to this debate in the first place. I havent had time to respond because i have been at work. I will respond now.
  5. #305  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Wrong, and you're attempting to cloud the clarity of my idea which is why you brought affirmative action in to this debate in the first place. I havent had time to respond because i have been at work. I will respond now.
    If it were any cloudier you could eat it with a fork.
  6.    #306  
    crap.. my power is out
  7.    #307  
    ok, my power is back ... and affirmative action in this context was your idea not mine
  8.    #308  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze
    I just wanted to be clear that both of us agree that blacks or hispanics are no less inteligent than whites or asians. This is is the foundation the idea of affirmative action, and there are those on the right that point to books like the bell curve which says genetic differences in intelligence account for discrepencies in sat scores.
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I'm not one of those people. But I don't see how it leads naturally that AA is the proper course.
    If you were on the admissions board at the University of Michigan and you were presented with two students. Apart from these stats, everything else is pretty much equal.

    • The first student, an asian student, has a 3.2 grade point average and a 27 on his ACT.
    • The second student, an african american student, has a 3.2 grade point average and a 26 on his ACT.

    Affirmative action says that it is not illegal for the admissions board to consider any and all reasons why the black student might have a lower act score than the first student, that may not be related to the likelyhood of said students success at the University. Including the fact that the black student is much more likely to

    • "fail to see see the value in education because their families haven't instilled it in them". (hoovs)
    • "have been failed by a public school system that's more interested in seeing them as minorities than in seeing them educated " (hoovs)
    • "have family and social concerns that outweigh school, etc., etc." (hoovs)
    • be stricken by poverty
    • attend failing schools

    Affirmative action says, that if I am on the admissions board at the University of Michigan I am allowed to choose the candidate most likely to succeed at my school, and looking at the two candidates before me, I might be inclined to choose the african american student. After all, despite him being much more likely to have "his family not instill value in education in him", "having been failed by public schools", "social concerns", despite the fact that he is much more likely to have attended a failing school, he still acheived a 3.2 gpa, and a 26 on his act.

    Just the student I would want at my University. Not because i am giving him a handout or a handup, but because i feel that he is the most qualified applicant based on his own individual merit. Affirmative action gives me the right to make that choice.

    Are there abuses to affirmative action? Of course there are. And some of them such as quotas and set asides (similar to setting visas aside for certain nationalities and witholding them from others) have been ruled illegal.

    The policy at the University of Michigan is a point system in which being an underrepresented minority is only one factor. Just as George W Bush's last name was one factor in his admission to Princeton.

    As it relates to immigration, i never said anything about assigning those points based on race or nationality, and in fact had never given it any thought. You posed the question of affirmative action to me, and I said that I would not be opposed.

    So, as I said from the beginning, Each prospective immigrant should be judged on the basis of his own individual merit, not on his nationality.
  9. #309  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    As it relates to immigration, i never said anything about assigning those points based on race or nationality, and in fact had never given it any thought. You posed the question of affirmative action to me, and I said that I would not be opposed.

    So, as I said from the beginning, Each prospective immigrant should be judged on the basis of his own individual merit, not on his nationality.
    Does it really matter who brought it up? An inconsistency is still and inconsistency. You should be giving me kudos for poking holes in your argument.
  10.    #310  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Does it really matter who brought it up? An inconsistency is still and inconsistency. You should be giving me kudos for poking holes in your argument.
    lol, did you even read my post? what inconsistency? my posistion is the same since post 2
  11. #311  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    lol, did you even read my post? what inconsistency? my posistion is the same since post 2
    Yeah, I read it and, apparently, so did you--since you wrote it. Oddly, you still don't see the contradiction.
  12.    #312  
    I think you're not dense. I think you are so emotionally invested in your prefabricated ideology that your deliberately pretending as though you dont get it.

    The point of affirmative action, is to pick the best candidate on the basis of his own individual merit!

    The black student with the 26 on the Act IS the best canditate!
  13. #313  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I think you're not dense. I think you are so emotionally invested in your prefabricated ideology that your deliberately pretending as though you dont get it.

    The point of affirmative action, is to pick the best candidate on the basis of his own individual merit!

    The black student with the 26 on the Act IS the best canditate!
    That's a convenient example you made up but we live in the real world.
  14.    #314  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    That's a convenient example you made up but we live in the real world.
    It's an example designed to illustrate the principle on which the affirmative action policy at the University of Michigan is based, and the policy I would not be opposed to in our Immigration system.

    One that judges each individual applicant on the basis of his own merit, not his nationality. Just like I said since post 2.
  15. #315  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    It's an example designed to illustrate the principle on which the affirmative action policy at the University of Michigan is based, and the policy I would not be opposed to in our Immigration system.

    One that judges each individual applicant on the basis of his own merit, not his nationality. Just like I said since post 2.
    Not a very good example. If you know as much about it as you seem to imply then you know that the weighting of certain aspects of a candidate are much heavier than you're leading on.
  16.    #316  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Not a very good example. If you know as much about it as you seem to imply then you know that the weighting of certain aspects of a candidate are much heavier than you're leading on.


    I have said before that the example was intended to illustrate the underlying principle behind a fair affirmative action policy. ( ie no illegal quota system )

    If we start with the premise that there is no biological component to the differences in this chart, then even if we assign enough points to completely even out the makeup of the student body to the point where it reflects the racial makeup of the United States or the community, then we are still choosing those students most likely to succeed once we bring them on campus and put them on equal footing.

    Furthermore, I have not even proposed this. I have only said that I would not be opposed to some sort of similar point system.
  17. #317  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74


    I have said before that the example was intended to illustrate the underlying principle behind a fair affirmative action policy. ( ie no illegal quota system )

    If we start with the premise that there is no biological component to the differences in this chart, then even if we assign enough points to completely even out the makeup of the student body to the point where it reflects the racial makeup of the United States or the community, then we are still choosing those students most likely to succeed once we bring them on campus and put them on equal footing.

    Furthermore, I have not even proposed this. I have only said that I would not be opposed to some sort of similar point system.
    By those numbers, your example is way off. Even so, the problem is that you're just looking at numbers and making assumptions. You assume that none of those Black kids is a middle class slacker and none of those asian kids is a really smart kid growing up in poverty. I live in California and we have a large percentage of poor asian families.
  18.    #318  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    By those numbers, your example is way off. Even so, the problem is that you're just looking at numbers and making assumptions. You assume that none of those Black kids is a middle class slacker and none of those asian kids is a really smart kid growing up in poverty. I live in California and we have a large percentage of poor asian families.
    You have a habbit of losing one argument and starting another.

    Affirmative action does not force the admissions board to ignore any of the factors you mentioned. In fact, they often do. It simply says that it is not illegal for them to use race as one factor among many in choosing the candidate most likely to succeed. Any uses of affirmative without the goal of choosing the most qualified applicant, are abuses of affirmative action.
  19. #319  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    You have a habbit of losing one argument and starting another.
    Such as?
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