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  1. #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Of course they have.
    Where has anyone said "Mexicans" should go home?
  2. #282  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Wow, If you think the INS is doing anything close to security then you have not only never dealt with the INS, but you have never taken a look around.
    Which is why I included that last line.

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    And the idea that our immigration policy was designed to somehow balance being equitable with national security is just flat out wrong.
    Of course you do. That's why I said we'd have to agree to disagree about that. Unless you want to rehash the whole thing.
  3. #283  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Of course its not abusrd, and you've taken that out of context.
    Did you or did you not claim our immigration policy is "moraly bankrupt on its face"?
  4.    #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I think the consensus is that nobody, maybe even including you, is sure what your point is.
    I will make it again.

    Tell me if this sounds farmilliar.

    It is my view that each potential immigrant to the United States should be judged on the basis of his or her individual merit.

    NOT on the basis of his or her nationality which is how it works now.

    Visa's are explicitly witheld from Mexican and Filipino applicants, and not from German or Swiss.
  5. #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    It is my view that each potential immigrant to the United States should be judged on the basis of his or her individual merit.
    Unless they come from a country which is "racially under-represented" in the United States. Does that sound familiar?
  6.    #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze
    Wow, If you think the INS is doing anything close to security then you have not only never dealt with the INS, but you have never taken a look around.
    Which is why I included that last line.
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze
    And the idea that our immigration policy was designed to somehow balance being equitable with national security is just flat out wrong.
    Of course you do. That's why I said we'd have to agree to disagree about that. Unless you want to rehash the whole thing.
    Um, this is the first time i can remember you claiming that our immigration policy is some kind of balance between fairness and security.

    I can tell you now hoovs, as someone who has been through the entire immigration process more than once, that statement shows you have NEVER dealt with the INS.

    In my experience with the INS, there were exactly zero steps in the process that were related to national security. zero.
  7.    #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Unless they come from a country which is "racially under-represented" in the United States. Does that sound familiar?
    Well you put quotes around it, so i was thinking you were saying it was a quote, perhaps from me. But I didn't say it, so ... i am guessing it's another example of you standing on shaky intellectual ground and changing my side of the argument again.
  8. #288  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Well you put quotes around it, so i was thinking you were saying it was a quote, perhaps from me. But I didn't say it, so ... i am guessing it's another example of you standing on shaky intellectual ground and changing my side of the argument again.
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    On the other hand, if the united states were to adopt an immigration policy (much like this policy the president attempted to kill at the University of Michigan which was free of quotas or set asides) which built on the point system to include underrepresented minorities in the united states. I would not be opposed.
    My bad, you said "underrepresented minorites". But I don't think it changes your argument one bit.
  9.    #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    My bad, you said "underrepresented minorites". But I don't think it changes your argument one bit.
    Just try to define your side of the argument, not mine.

    First, don't try to cloud the clarity of my point(which you have not responded to in 200 posts). My complaint about our immigration system has NOTHING to do with "underrepresented minorities". I meant exactly what I said
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze
    if the united states were to adopt an immigration policy (much like this policy the president attempted to kill at the University of Michigan which was free of quotas or set asides) which built on the point system to include underrepresented minorities in the united states. I would not be opposed.
    And Of course you wouldn't see how it changes my argument because, based on your posts, it seems you lack an understanding of how affirmative action differs from illegal systems of set asides, and quotas. And as you can see, the system i pointed to was the system at the University of Michigan, which judges each applicant on the basis of his or her own individual merit, just like our immigration policy should.

    If you compare the Canadian immigration policy, and the University of Michigan's admission policy, you will see there are more similarites than differences, and neither is a system of set asides or quotas, and more importantly, neither explicitly singles out an entire nationality of persons and witholds their admission.
  10. #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I can tell you now hoovs, as someone who has been through the entire immigration process more than once, that statement shows you have NEVER dealt with the INS.
    This in itself deserves an explaination.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    If you compare the Canadian immigration policy, and the University of Michigan's admission policy, you will see there are more similarites than differences, and neither is a system of set asides or quotas, and more importantly, neither explicitly singles out an entire nationality of persons and witholds their admission.
    If you have a DUI, you can go to Michigan, but you cant go fishing in Canada.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  12. #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Just try to define your side of the argument, not mine.
    It would help if yours would stay in one place. Kind of hard to debate a moving target.

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    My complaint about our immigration system has NOTHING to do with "underrepresented minorities".
    Follow the argument, Blaze. I was pointing out the contradictions. You have no problem with a points system that favors "underrepresented minorities" (your exact words), yet you say you want an immigration policy base only on a person's merits and not their race or nationality.

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    And as you can see, the system i pointed to was the system at the University of Michigan, which judges each applicant on the basis of his or her own individual merit, just like our immigration policy should.
    Yeah, except with extra points for people from certain countries. Face it, Blaze, that's a clear contradiction. And the reason I'm pointing it out is that your system would not be much different, in principle, than the policy you seem to want to deride.
  13.    #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Yeah, except with extra points for people from certain countries. Face it, Blaze, that's a clear contradiction. And the reason I'm pointing it out is that your system would not be much different, in principle, than the policy you seem to want to deride.
    The reason you think it is a contradiction, is because you either do not have an understanding of affirmative action, or because you are so emotionally invested in your adopted ideology that you are unable or unwilling to admit that you are wrong. I'm not sure which. But since you have done this to me at least once, I am sure you wont mind answering one simple question for me, and I will clear this whole affirmative action versus quota system thing up.

    It all boils down to one simple question.

    At the University of Michigan, African American applicants have lower act scores than whites or asians.

    Why is that?
  14. #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    The reason you think it is a contradiction, is because you either do not have an understanding of affirmative action, or because you are so emotionally invested in your adopted ideology that you are unable or unwilling to admit that you are wrong.
    Wow, that was a tad hypocritical. Anyway, it all boils down to this: you blame the US policy because some groups are passed over in favor of other groups. In your policy (one which would include extra points for underrepresented minorities) some groups would be passed over in favor of other groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    At the University of Michigan, African American applicants have lower act scores than whites or asians.

    Why is that?
    I have some ideas but I really don't know for certain. Why do you think it is?
  15.    #295  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I have some ideas but I really don't know for certain. Why do you think it is?
    Way to diflect it right back to me but sure.

    They are more likely to be poor. Their schools suck. Because of our nation's history of slavery and opression, their grandparents and parents are less likely to be educated themselves. Some of the act questions deal with culturally specific subject matter. And many, many more reasons.

    Now back to what I was asking ... I'd really be interested in those ideas.
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Way to diflect it right back to me but sure.
    I told you I wasn't sure. Why wasn't that an appropriate answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    They are more likely to be poor. Their schools suck. Because of our nation's history of slavery and opression, their grandparents and parents are less likely to be educated themselves. Some of the act questions deal with culturally specific subject matter. And many, many more reasons.
    Which questions are culturally biased?

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Now back to what I was asking ... I'd really be interested in those ideas.
    I think that if it is the case that they have lower ACT scores then the reasons are probably varied: many of them probably don't see the value in education because their families haven't instilled it in them. Many have been failed by a public school system that's more interested in seeing them as minorities than in seeing them educated. Many have family and social concerns that outweigh school, etc., etc.
  17.    #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I think that if it is the case that they have lower ACT scores then the reasons are probably varied: many of them probably don't see the value in education because their families haven't instilled it in them. Many have been failed by a public school system that's more interested in seeing them as minorities than in seeing them educated. Many have family and social concerns that outweigh school, etc., etc.
    I notice that among your reasons, you did not list that they lack intelligence, or are less apt to learn.
  18. #298  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I notice that among your reasons, you did not list that they lack intelligence, or are less apt to learn.
    Of course not. Why would I?
  19.    #299  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze
    I notice that among your reasons, you did not list that they lack intelligence, or are less apt to learn.
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Of course not. Why would I?
    I just wanted to be clear that both of us agree that blacks or hispanics are no less inteligent than whites or asians. This is is the foundation the idea of affirmative action, and there are those on the right that point to books like the bell curve which says genetic differences in intelligence account for discrepencies in sat scores.
  20. #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I just wanted to be clear that both of us agree that blacks or hispanics are no less inteligent than whites or asians. This is is the foundation the idea of affirmative action, and there are those on the right that point to books like the bell curve which says genetic differences in intelligence account for discrepencies in sat scores.
    I'm not one of those people. But I don't see how it leads naturally that AA is the proper course.

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