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  1.    #241  
    Been on the road all week. As most have probably heard there was a report that came out this last week that Iran stopped their Nuke weapon's program in 2003....even though they still continued their deployment program (increasing range of missiles) and still continued enriching (the source to actually build a bomb with). I find it interesting at the timing that they stopped it. It was the time that the US was really pressuring Saddam for his nuke program that he later testified to was halted at the time but still wanted Iran to think he had it until he could actually start it up again. It was after Libya opened up it's doors and gave up it's WMD programs for fear the US might look their way.

    Heck I have only seen it reported a few times what the NIE said that have been overshadowed by its "high confidence" conclusion about Iran suspending its program in 2003. It said that Iran is keeping open the nuclear arms option and that it had only "moderate confidence" that Tehran has not restarted the weapons program.

    Here are some of the latest reactions from around the world in the last day or two:

    Doves find fault with Iran report too

    December 7, 2007

    Sharon Squassoni, a former government nuclear safeguards expert now with the generally liberal Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, noted that the intelligence report said Iran suspended its enrichment program in 2003 and later signed an agreement allowing U.N. inspections.

    But, she said, the portion of the report made public was silent on the fact that the Iranians reversed both actions in 2006.

    The ability to develop fissile materials is the most important element of a nuclear weapons program, she told reporters.

    Gary Samore, who was a top arms control official in the Clinton White House, agreed that the National Intelligence Estimate did not adequately emphasize Iran's continuing efforts to enrich uranium and build missiles.

    "The halting of the weaponization program in 2003 is less important from a proliferation standpoint than resumption of the enrichment program in 2006," said Samore, director of studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.

    Samore said the report undermined Bush's warnings about Iranian efforts to develop nuclear weapons and left Tehran in a strong position, allowing it to develop its enrichment capacity without a substantial challenge from the United States and its allies. The secret weaponization program is "on ice," he said, but Iran preserves the option to resume that when it wishes.

    FULL STORY: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ack=crosspromo
    France Pushes for Tightened Sanctions Against Iran Despite U.S. Report

    PARIS — France pushed for continued negotiations to tighten international sanctions against Iran, saying Friday that its concerns about Tehran's nuclear program were not allayed by new U.S. intelligence.

    "Negotiations should continue so that we can reach possibly a worsening of the sanctions regime," said French presidential spokesman David Martinon.

    "We need to increase pressure on Iran and the only way to do that is sanctions," he added. "For us, the sooner the better."

    U.S. intelligence agencies, in a report released on Monday, concluded that Iran had a covert nuclear weapons program, but halted it in 2003. But Martinon said the report did not allay France's concerns. French President Nicolas Sarkozy and U.S. President George W. Bush discussed the report earlier this week.

    "We cannot at all conclude that the threat has decreased," said Martinon.

    He urged Iran to cooperate fully with the International Atomic Energy Agency and suspend uranium enrichment.

    "The demands of the international community are more pertinent than ever," he said.

    FULL STORY: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315789,00.html
    U.S., Europe Press for New Sanctions on Iran After Spy Report


    Dec. 7 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. and its European allies will proceed with efforts to impose a third round of United Nations sanctions against Iran in the face of an intelligence report suggesting the nuclear threat from the country has diminished.

    ``We are going to continue our work on the Security Council resolution,'' Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said today after meetings with NATO and European Union foreign ministers in Brussels. ``We very much hope that Iran will choose to suspend its enriching and reprocessing activities.''


    -------------------

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said after meeting with Rice and her counterparts from other North Atlantic Treaty Organization countries that he hopes ``negotiations'' with Iran will continue and that the U.S. will not use force to resolve the matter.

    China said earlier this week that the intelligence report would impede agreement on new UN sanctions. ``We all start from a presumption that now things have changed,'' Wang Guangya, China's ambassador to the UN, said on Dec. 4. There will be ``second thoughts,'' he said.

    -----------------

    Success with enrichment would bring Iran a step closer to producing a nuclear weapon, and the program only makes sense in the context of an attempt to build a bomb, Belgian Foreign Minister Karel De Gucht told reporters after hosting the meeting's first session late yesterday.

    ``Everyone around the table agreed we should not change our position,'' de Gucht said. ``They should come into line with all the obligations.''

    --------------------

    ``It is probably correct to maintain a necessary degree of pressure through the solidarity of the international community,'' German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said. ``None of that should deter us especially at this moment from trying to find a way back to the negotiating table.''

    FULL STORY: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p....w4&refer=home
    So the question now is....should the sanctions already in place continue and should they continue as planned with the new ones? The US and many nations in the EU think yes. For two reasons....have they stopped enriching and allowed anyone in to verify it is not potentially able to be used for weapons grade material? And the other main reason is why the heck did Iran stop anyone from confirming this 4 years ago? This would have been to their advantage, yet they continually kicked out all UN & International agencies out when they started asking questions about it and looking for proof they were not doing what is now being reported they stopped doing 4 years ago. Maybe it is just my former corrections officer skepticism coming out again, but it seems if you are innocent and under pressure for stopping what you are have already stopped, then you would want the world to know about it. why won't they let anyone in now to confirm this report?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/18/2007 at 10:52 PM.
  2.    #242  
    CBS had an interesting story about the possible realities of Iran stopping their Nuke Weapons program while still actually developing the necessary technologies for a Nuke bomb:

    Iran's Nuclear Know-How Unimpeded
    As Power Research Proceeds, Tehran Can Still Gain The Expertise Needed For A Bomb


    But developing the technology to enrich uranium is perhaps the most difficult step in a nuclear weapons - or civilian power - program. According to administration officials and outside experts, it is possible that Tehran has simply decided it does not need to proceed with actual bomb work, at least for now.

    "Iranian leaders appear to have recognized that by staying within the rules they can acquire capabilities sufficient to impress their own people and intimidate their neighbors, without inviting tough international sanctions or military attack," concludes George Perkovich, director of the nonproliferation program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, in an assessment of the U.S. National Intelligence Estimate's (NIE) revelations.

    As of now the U.S. intelligence has high confidence that Iran has not produced enough highly enriched fissile material for a nuclear weapon. The earliest it would be able to do so is probably within the 2010 to 2015 time frame, according to the new NIE.

    And if Iran does decide to develop nuclear weapons, scientists would most likely use centrifuge technology, which they are currently working on at Natanz.

    "Iranian entities are continuing to develop a range of technical capabilities that could be applied to producing nuclear weapons," says the NIE.

    Iran has long claimed that its enrichment program is intended for civilian purposes. Iranian officials say they only want to learn how to produce fissionable fuel for power plants, as they are allowed to do under terms of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

    But in the past, Iranian officials have engaged in what UN weapons inspectors consider to be suspicious behavior in regard to their enrichment effort. For instance, Tehran has built and secretly operated centrifuges, the spinning tubes which are the heart of the enrichment technology Iran has chosen.

    For this and other reasons the International Atomic Energy Agency in 2003 declared Iran in violation of its UN nuclear safeguards agreement.

    -------------

    As of mid-August 2007, Iran had produced only about 70 kilograms of low-enriched uranium, according to David Albright, a physicist and president of the Institute for Science and International Security. At full speed, 3,000 centrifuges should be able to produce 90 kilograms of LEU in a month.

    Once Iran accumulates 700 to 800 kilograms of low-enriched material, it would have a breakout capability, concludes Albright in an assessment in the current issue of the journal Arms Control Today. It could take that material and put it back into the centrifuges and keep upping its concentration, producing enough HEU for a bomb within a few months.



    FULL STORY
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/10/2008 at 01:37 AM.
  3.    #243  
    Here is the latest game Iran was reported playing the other day as reported by the Associated Press:

    Iran Says U.S. Navy 'Fabricated' Video of Gulf Confrontation With Attack Boats
    Wednesday, January 09, 2008


    TEHRAN, Iran — Iran accused the United States on Wednesday of fabricating video and audio released by the Pentagon showing Iranian boats confronting U.S. warships in the Persian Gulf.

    The video from Sunday's incident shows small Iranian boats swarming around U.S. warships in the Strait of Hormuz. In the recording, a man speaking in heavily accented English threatened, "I am coming to you. ... You will explode after ... minutes."

    "The footage released by the U.S. Navy was compiled using file pictures and the audio has been fabricated," an official in Iran's Revolutionary Guards was quoted as saying by the state-run English-language channel Press TV. State TV did not give the name of the Revolutionary Guard official and did not offer more details about how the official knew the footage was "fabricated."

    ------------

    He (the official IRNA news agency quoted Najjar as saying) said the encounter was normal. "The identification of vessels passing through the Strait of Hormuz by Iranian navy units is a natural occurrence," IRNA quoted Najjar as saying. "Islamic Republic of Iran navy units always put questions to passing vessels and warships at the Strait of Hormuz and they need to identify themselves. This is in accordance with the normal procedures."

    Cosgriff, the commander of U.S. 5th Fleet, which patrols the Gulf and is based in nearby Bahrain, said the American vessels, which were clearly marked, had been identified by Iranian authorities earlier in the day.

    FULL STORY
    It is stupid actions like this that can escalate (hopefully limited to a single instance) of unneeded and unwanted waste of life between two countries already at odds with each other.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/10/2008 at 01:30 AM.
  4. #244  
    Iran's swarming tactics are all about testing our defenses.

    Throughout our time in Iraq, Iran and Syria provided air and ground infromation to insurgents in Iraq. That led to a lot of problems and deaths. Quite frankly, I'm surprised we did not react more drastically to this.

    Iran is playing the media like a fiddle...

    It will all end badly, I fear...
  5.    #245  
    We know that Iran has trained and has supplied Hezbollah with weapons (source and source). There has been repeated evidence found that Iran has trained Shiites in Iraq and supplied them with road side bombs which is the number one US soldier killer in Iraq (source and source). And now according to the Associated Press, Israel has apparently found that some of the missiles being fired from Hamas against Israel are made in Iran as well.

    Israeli Lawmaker Says Rocket That Hit Israel Made in Iran
    Tuesday, January 15, 2008



    JERUSALEM — A rocket fired at Israel by Palestinians earlier this month was made in Iran, an Israeli lawmaker and security officials said Tuesday.

    The origins of the rocket, which hit the Israeli town of Ashkelon on Jan. 3, offered a further indication of ties between Gaza's militants and Iran's hard-line Islamic regime.......Israeli security officials confirmed Tuesday that the rocket came from Iran. They could not immediately say if it was the first Iranian-made rocket to hit Israel.....

    Gaza's Hamas rulers are known to have close ties with Iran. Two groups took responsibility for firing the rocket — Islamic Jihad, also tied to Iran, and a smaller faction allied with Hamas.

    FULL ARTICLE
  6. #246  
    The fact of the matter is that they are trying to tempt us into attacking them, just so they can run away and call us war mongerers.

    They are a terrorist nation. period. There is really no debating the point. It is plain as day for the world to see.
  7. #247  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Iran's swarming tactics are all about testing our defenses...

    Iran is playing the media like a fiddle...

    It will all end badly, I fear...
    I haven't read this thread much --

    I looked in on it now expecting to have the pleasure of watching junior's blood lusters enjoy eating their raw crow, to enjoy watching them squirm as they confront being once again bamboozled and scammed.

    The news story that follows has been widely reported -- and as such I expected it to be primary the subject of discussion.

    Oh well. As pure entertainment junior's cons never get old, and thankfully his marks never learn.


    ...Threat To U.S. Warships A Hoax?
    Associated Press Jan. 14, 2008

    CAIRO, Egypt: Sailors in the Persian Gulf have known him for years: a radio operator who taunts and insults passing ships. The rants are heard, logged then mostly forgotten.

    But now the phantom voice has taken center stage in the latest flurry of claims and counterclaims between Iran and the United States following a tense high seas confrontation - raising new questions about whether Washington could have gotten a key element of the story wrong.

    The radio transmission - a staccato burst suggesting [threatening the] U.S. Navy ships as targeted for explosion - was a central part of an audio-video presentation that U.S. officials claimed showed Iranian speedboats swarming three Navy warships on Jan. 6 ...

    Iran has called the U.S. recordings fabrications. Tehran's rebuttal received fresh attention after a newspaper that focuses on Navy issues said veteran U.S. sailors believe the threats could have been a well-known Gulf gadfly who has been pestering Gulf ships since at least the 1980s...

    Washington released a tape of a radio transmission of a male voice speaking in heavily accented English on an open frequency: "I am coming to you. ... You will explode after ... minutes."...

    ...the Navy has said it cannot pinpoint the source. Over the decades, neither the location or the nationality of the Gulf radio prankster - or pranksters - has been determined.

    Other evidence also has cast doubt on whether the threat came from the Iranian boats, including a lack of background noise - such as boat engines or wind - on the audiotape. Other analysts have noted the voice does not sound like an Iranian accent. ...

    Another danger is weakening U.S. credibility among European allies the United States needs to maintain a tough line against Iran on standoffs such as Iran's nuclear ambitions and its suspected aid to Shiite militias in Iraq. France, Germany and Britain are likely to stay allied with Bush on Iran, but only as long as they believe the United States has compelling evidence of Iranian wrongdoing.

    U.S. sailors say they have heard the prankster - who is possibly more than one person - transmitting "insults and jabbering vile epithets" on unencrypted frequencies during Navy exercises in the Gulf for years, said the Navy Times, a privately owned newspaper...

    "For 25 years there's been this mythical guy out there who, hour after hour, shouts obscenities and threats," Hoffman told Navy Times...
    Last edited by BARYE; 01/16/2008 at 04:19 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  8. #248  
    what always gets old are the empty-headed leftist terrorist apologists invariably turning blind eyes to obvious and undisputable acts of provocation by aggressive countries.

    "Oh these instigations by Iran must be fabrications by bush. Iran or any other nation can't POSSIBLY be terrorists unless hillary rotten clinton or slip -and- fall edwards says its so".

    Such folks are ridiculous.
    Anything to insult or instigate the opposing party. Its the essence of an argumentative fool merely bent on instigating fights with the right.

    You're a broken record.
  9. #249  
    Its amusing that there just happened to be a charging iranian ship coming at the US fleet right when this so-called "prankster" transmitted his signal. hmmmm.

    Funny how skillfully this "prankster" was able to coordinate his voice with the oncoming iranian ship which turned back at the last moment.

    Typical attempt to try to spin the event against republicans.
  10.    #250  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I haven't read this thread much --

    The news story that follows has been widely reported -- and as such I expected it to be primary the subject of discussion.
    Barye, 4 posts up from yours, I did post the Iran's side claiming the whole situation was fabricated and was a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I looked in on it now expecting to have the pleasure of watching junior's blood lusters enjoy eating their raw crow, to enjoy watching them squirm as they confront being once again bamboozled and scammed.

    Oh well. As pure entertainment junior's cons never get old, and thankfully his marks never learn.
    I noticed you failed to mentioned the following while quoting the article:

    Cmdr. Lydia Robertson, spokeswoman for the Fifth Fleet in Bahrain, said Monday that the Navy - while trying to determine the transmission's source - still believed the overall incident was highly provocative.

    "The Iranian boats were coming close to the ships, making aggressive maneuvers and objects were being dropped into the water," she told The Associated Press.

    Cmdr. Jeffery James of the destroyer USS Hopper, one of the U.S. warships involved, said Sunday that it was the confluence of factors that caused most alarm.

    "Whether it (the radio threat) was coincidental or not, it occurred at exactly the same time that these boats were around us, and they were placing objects in the water - so the threat appeared to be building," James said.
    But onto the points you raised, there is a HUGE difference from a person jabbering insults hours on end as has historically been his (their) practice vs a well coordinated threat timed to perfection with the Revolutionary Guard. During a situation at sea when you have five Iranian speedboats, operated by the elite Iranian Revolutionary Guard, conducting extremely offensive maneuvers at you while at the same time having a radio conversation from a person claiming to blow you up.....you have to assume the source is from the boats conducting the confrontational actions at that time.

    I am not a radio expert by any means, but the source of broadcasts are often hard to verify their origin.....which can be used to cast doubt in any given situation. So we are talking about after the fact detailed scrutiny and analysis of an event that did actually happen. The only point being questioned is the origin and source of the broadcast during the event. It seems this article is calling into question if the Navy almost fell for a well coordinated hoax on them vs fabricating the whole situation for their own political agenda vs if the threat was real and legit from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. If it is hoax, I would also wonder how the prankster knew what was going to happen ahead of time at that exact moment and how he knew when to stop his broadcast. Could that still lead to some collaboration with, at the very least, some members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard?

    I do not have a clue if the broadcast came from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard or from the conspiracy theory of a mystical mystery rogue Filipino Monkey (any relation? ) broadcaster but I do have two other points of concern if it was him. The US Navy was still trying to get the Iranian Revolutionary Guard to identify themselves, state their intentions, and request that they turn around immediately. They then ignored all three for something like 20 minutes, which is an act of provocation in and of itself when taken in context with their actions at the time. And second, I would assume that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard could hear this conversation as well (or at least hear the US Navy responding to someone else) and if they heard someone making a threat that they never intended, I would think they would try to clarify this potentially deadly situation that was taken out their hands and control as soon as the Filipino Monkey would have broadcast on their behalf.

    But the bottom line is that no matter what the reality of the broadcast, this is at least the 3rd time the Iranian Revolutionary Guard has initiated provocative encounters with US Navy ships, including at least one about 3 weeks prior to this incident on Jan 6th that resulted in forcing our ships to fire warning shots against the Iranian Revolutionary Guard to end the confrontation.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/17/2008 at 05:19 PM.
  11.    #251  
    Germany has now stepped out publicly about it's stance on Iran's nuke program. Also Iran is already past the deadline from last year and has now committed to answering all remaining questions (....yet again) about its past nuclear work within four weeks, including secret activities suspected to be linked to a weapons program. If not there will be yet another round of Sanctions.

    German Minister Says World Must Prevent Iran From Building Nuke Weapons
    Thursday, January 17, 2008


    VIENNA, Austria — Germany's foreign minister on Thursday said the international community remains determined to prevent Iran from developing technology for nuclear weapons ........Germany and the five permanent Security Council members plan to meet Tuesday in Berlin for talks that diplomats said will include attempts to iron out differences on the language and timing of a third set of U.N. sanctions for Tehran's refusal to freeze uranium enrichment and meet other council demands.

    -------------

    "The whole strategy here is to use various kinds of diplomatic pressure at a gradually increasing rate to try to get a different set of decisions out of the Iranian leadership," spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters.

    Officials commenting on ElBaradei's trip to Tehran last week said Iran had promised the U.N.'s chief nuclear inspector to answer all remaining questions about its past nuclear work within four weeks, including secret activities the U.S. suspects were linked to a weapons program.

    The probe originally was slated to be completed in December....In agreeing to the IAEA probe last year, Iran agreed to answer all lingering questions about its past nuclear activities — including those it has evaded since 2003, when nearly 20 years of Iranian clandestine atomic work were revealed.

    --------

    Among the material is data on a laptop computer reportedly smuggled out of Iran. In 2005, U.S. intelligence said that information suggested that the country had been working on details for nuclear weapons, including missile trajectories and ideal altitudes for exploding warheads.

    U.S. intelligence was also shared with the agency regarding the "Green Salt Project" — a plan that the U.S. alleges links diverse components of a nuclear weapons program, including uranium enrichment, high explosives testing and a missile re-entry vehicle.

    FULL STORY
    For the last 5 years, multiple UN demands, and two resulting UN Sanctions Iran has refused to address the hard questions about their Nuke program....will they really open up within the next 4 weeks and spill it all?
  12.    #252  
    Okay, forget that Iran hid their nuke program for 20 years from the rest of the world. Forget about them threatening to share their nuke technology with unstable govs. Forget about Iran being the number one terrorist supporter in the world. Forget about them ignoring 3 UN sanctions to stop processing nuke material by installing 6,000 additional centrifuges. Forget that they declared Isreal must be wiped off the face of the earth.

    This has got to be the last straw. They are now attacking my perfect dream couple Spiderman and Barbie!!!!!!

    Iran official warns against Barbie dolls



    Prosecutor General Ghorban Ali Dori Najafabadi said in an official letter to Vice President Parviz Davoudi that the Western toys was a "danger" that needed to be stopped.

    "The irregular importation of such toys, which unfortunately arrive through unofficial sources and smuggling, is destructive culturally and a social danger," Najafabadi said in his letter, a copy of which was made available to The Associated Press.

    -----------------

    In Monday's letter, Najafabadi said the increasing visibility of Western dolls was raising the alarm among authorities who were considering intervening.

    "The displays of personalities such as Barbie, Batman, Spiderman and Harry Potter ... as well as the irregular importation of unsanctioned computer games and movies are all warning bells to the officials in the cultural arena," the letter said.

    Najafabadi said Iran was the world's third biggest importer of toys, and these smuggled imports posed a threat to the "identity" of the new generation.

    "Undoubtedly, the personality and identity of the new generation and our children, as a result of unrestricted importation of toys, has been put at risk and caused irreparable damages," he said.

    Authorities launched a temporary campaign of confiscating Barbie from toy stores in 2002, denouncing the un-Islamic sensibilities of the iconic American doll. The campaign was eventually discontinued.

    That same year, though, Iran introduced a competing doll — the twins Dara and Sara, who promoted traditional values with their modest clothing and pro-family stories but they proved unable to stem the Barbie tide.

    In 1996, the head of a government-backed children's agency called Barbie a "Trojan horse" sneaking in Western influences

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...e_N.htm?csp=15
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/26/2008 at 09:52 PM.
  13.    #253  
    This is what gets me.....if Iran is being honest with their claims of developing a peaceful nuke program then why deny the only agency that resources they require so they can confirm your innocence and get the world world off your back?



    Iran holds back nuclear details, IAEA says
    Monday, May 26, 2008

    (CNN) -- Iran is still withholding critical information that could determine whether it is trying to make nuclear weapons, the International Atomic Energy Agency said in a restricted report.

    The nine-page report, obtained by CNN on Monday, detailed a number of recent meetings with Iranian officials who deny conducting weapons research and continue to stymie the United Nations' nuclear watchdog agency.

    "The agency is continuing to assess the information and explanations provided by Iran," the report said. "However, at this stage, Iran has not provided the agency with all the information, access to documents and access to individuals necessary to support Iran's statements."

    --------------

    The report said Iran still has not disclosed full information about its work on high-explosive testing and missile design work, as well as the "green salt project" studies -- research involving uranium tetrafluoride, a precursor to uranium hexafluoride, which is used in gas centrifuges to make enriched uranium.

    "The agency has not detected the actual use of nuclear material" in the projects. However, they remain "a matter of serious concern," and clarification of them is critical to assessing Iran's past and present program, the report said.

    The IAEA said some of its member nations had provided information on these programs. But Iran dismissed the allegations as baseless and argued that the evidence contradicting the agency's claims was fabricated, the report said.

    --------------

    That report said Iran had clarified many of the outstanding issues regarding its nuclear program, but that it had not suspended its activities related to enrichment of uranium, and that doubts remained about whether the country's program had a peaceful aim.

    FULL STORY: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/me...ef=mpstoryview
  14. #254  
    ----
    Nuclear agency accuses Iran of willful lack of cooperation
    By Elaine Sciolino

    Tuesday, May 27, 2008
    PARIS: The International Atomic Energy Agency, in an unusually blunt and detailed report, said Monday that Iran's suspected research into the development of nuclear weapons remains "a matter of serious concern" and continues to need "substantial explanations."

    The nine-page report accused the Iranians of a willful lack of cooperation, particularly in answering allegations that its nuclear program may be pointed less at energy generation than at military use.

    Part of the agency's case hinges on 18 documents listed in the report and presented to Iran that, according to Western intelligence agencies, indicate the Iranians have ventured into explosives, uranium processing and a missile warhead design activities that ordinarily would be associated with constructing nuclear weapons.

    "There are certain parts of their nuclear program where the military seems to have played a role," said one senior official close to the agency, who spoke on condition of anonymity under normal diplomatic constraints. He added, "We want to understand why."

    Iran has dismissed the documents as "forged" or "fabricated," claimed that its experiments and projects had nothing to do with a nuclear weapons program and refused to provide documentation and access to its scientists to support its claims.

    The report also makes the serious allegation that Iran is learning to make more powerful centrifuges that are operating faster and more efficiently, the product of robust research and development that has not been fully disclosed to the agency.

    That means the country may be producing enriched uranium which can be used to make electricity or fuel bombs faster than expected with a parallel program that could replace its older generation of less reliable centrifuges. Some of the centrifuge components have been produced by Iran's military, said the report, prepared by Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the agency.

    The report makes no effort to disguise the agency's frustration with Iran's lack of transparency. It describes, for example, Iran's installation of new centrifuges, known as the IR-2 and IR-3 (for Iranian second and third generations) and other modifications at its sprawling site at Natanz, as "significant, and as such should have been communicated to the agency."

    The agency also said that during a visit in April, it was denied access to sites where centrifuge components are being manufactured and where research of uranium enrichment is being conducted.

    The report does not say how much enriched uranium the Iranians are now producing, but the official connected to the agency said that since last December, it was slightly less than 150 kilograms, about double the amount they were producing during the same period about 18 months ago.

    "The Iranians are certainly being confronted with some pretty strong evidence of a nuclear weapons program and they are being petulant and defensive," said David Albright, a former weapons inspector who now runs the Institute for Science and International Security. "The report lays out what the agency knows and it is very damning. I've never seen it laid out quite like this."

    Ali Asghar Soltanieh, Iran's ambassador to the Vienna-based agency, however, said that the report vindicated Iran's nuclear activities. It "is another document that shows Iran's entire nuclear activities are peaceful," the semi-official Fars News Agency quoted him as saying.

    The report is likely to reinforce the view both in Washington and European capitals that Iran is not serious either in dealing with evidence that the United States has used in charging that Iran had tried to design a weapon or in complying with demands by the United Nations Security Council that it stop enriching uranium.

    A National Intelligence estimate published last December by American intelligence agencies concluded that Iran suspended its work on a weapons design in late 2003, in response apparently to mounting international pressure, adding that it wasn't certain whether the weapons work had resumed.

    The agency's report highlights the amount of work still to be done before definitive conclusions about the nature of the program can be made, a task that the agency-associated official said would require months.

    The absence of Iranian cooperation on nuclear issues comes as the Bush administration, in its waning days, seems powerless to modify Iran's behavior. And in fact, the delicate question seems already pushed to the future with the forceful disagreements in recent days between the Republican presidential candidate, John McCain, and Barack Obama, contending for the Democratic nomination, over whether an American president should negotiate with Iran's leadership.

    Still, Javier Solana, the European Union's foreign policy chief, announced in Brussels on Monday that he would go to Iran soon hopefully "within the month" to present a new offer of political, technological, security and trade rewards for Iran if the country halts its uranium enrichment program.

    Solana will travel with senior foreign ministry officials of five of the six countries involved in the initiative Britain, France, Russia, China and Germany but not the United States, which has refused to hold talks with Iran.

    The incentives, agreed on by the six countries in London early this month but still not made public, repackaged and clarified an incentives package presented to Iran in 2006.

    Iran rejected it at the time, saying that relinquishing its uranium enrichment program is non-negotiable. Indeed, following the London meeting this month, Iran's foreign minister, Manouchehr Mottaki, said that the new package should not cross Iran's "red line" shorthand for Iran's uranium-enrichment program.

    On May 13, Iran responded with its own package of proposals, calling for new international talks on political, economic and security issues, including its nuclear program and the Arab-Israeli peace process.

    The proposal, made in a letter from Mottaki to United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, includes the creation of international fuel production facilities in Iran and other countries a long-standing goal of Iran as well as improved supervision of Iran's nuclear program by the Vienna-based atomic energy agency.

    Over the years, the United States and France have led the way in opposing the idea of a fuel-production facility in Iran, arguing that it would allow Iranian experts to both master the complex process of enriching uranium and use that knowledge in a secret bomb-making project.

    Iran insists that its uranium enrichment program is devoted solely to producing fuel for nuclear reactors that generate electricity.

    The report, which was released on Monday to the agency's 35-country board of directors and the United Nations Security Council, will be formally discussed by the board at it headquarters in Vienna next week.
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  15. #255  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    This is what gets me.....if Iran is being honest with their claims of developing a peaceful nuke program then why deny the only agency that resources they require so they can confirm your innocence and get the world world off your back?

    That did not work too well for Iraq.... Foreign people riding around for years doing nothing more than spy missions (mapping, observing, etc).

    I doubt if it would matter anyway.... no matter what they do, if it involves nukes, we are against it... period.

    Like to see the look on your (or my face) if bush says he is going to let Russians, Syrians, Iranians, and Saudis free access to the usa -- to include our military bases -- to inspect our nukes (power plants, weapons, etc), and other infrastructure.

    Bush would be impeached or sent to the "crazy house"... if not worse. Seriously.... Americans would freak out....
    Last edited by theog; 05/29/2008 at 01:30 AM.
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  16.    #256  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    That did not work too well for Iraq.... Foreign people riding around for years doing nothing more than spy missions (mapping, observing, etc).
    There are plenty of long Iraq threads that I think shows Iraq is a great example to use. They too blocked inspectors , refused interviews with key personnel, kicked out the inspectors when they asked the wrong questions, and refused to answer questions that could have cleared their name, etc...

    No matter if Iraq actually had active WMDS, didn't have any and was planning on getting more when they had the chance, or never had any since they used them on Iran and the Kurds and planned on being the number one promoter of a WMD free world, they still left over 35 vital questions that they refused to answer about their WMDs. No matter if it was all lies and propaganda or based on what was thought to be reliable intelligence at the time from every major wester intel agency, Iraq refusing to cooperate to confirm their own claims of innocence led to a call to war.....which is what we want to avoid.

    This is NOT just a US crusade....Russia, England, Germany, France (which is actually surprisingly one of the most outspoken), UN, etc.... have actually taken the lead with all of these concerns.

    There is also a major difference here.....Iran made a deal with the world 25 years ago to stop their nuke ambitions. They lied and no one, not even Iran, denies that they continued their nuke program in secret for 20 years. Now they claim they stopped it again, but are continuing with parts of a nuke program that can used for making weapons so they can have electricity. We already gave them the benefit of the doubt for 20 years. We want to believe they are telling the truth. We have given them a means to clear their name now, but when the inspectors started asking to many questions or wondering why Iran was slipping behind their backs into sealed facilities before inspections, refusing interviews, etc... Their 20 year lie comes back to haunt them.

    We have given them every means to meet their own claimed demands of producing electricity now, faster than their plan, cheaper than their projected plan by having Russia process the nuke energy and shipping it to them. They refused on the sole grounds that it was an insult we provide a solution to meet their goals where they did not own the refineries that produced the nuke energy.

    All of our efforts to negotiate, to offer logistical and beneficial solutions to their claimed goals, their resistance to prove their innocent claims, all have to be taken into account.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I doubt if it would matter anyway.... no matter what they do, if it involves nukes, we are against it... period.

    Like to see the look on your (or my face) if bush says he is going to let Russians, Syrians, Iranians, and Saudis free access to the USA -- to include our military bases -- to inspect our nukes (power plants, weapons, etc), and other infrastructure.

    Bush would be impeached or sent to the "crazy house"... if not worse. Seriously.... Americans would freak out....
    So you put the US on the same level as Syria and Iran, the top two supporters of terrorists? With Iran who has threatened / promised that it will share it's nuke technology with anyone it pleases, especially unstable gov like Sudan?

    If we were threatening to wipe a country off the face of the earth due to religious differences, supporting multiple organizations that got off on targeting innocent civilians with as violent means as possible, publicly denounce and ignore the Treaty on the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT), and were more than willing to share our Nuke technology with genocidal govs, then yes....I would seriously question our right to have a nuclear arsenal and possess the technology and means to produce it. And I think the rest of the world would agree.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/29/2008 at 11:13 AM.
  17. #257  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    There are plenty of long Iraq threads that I think shows Iraq is a great example to use. They too blocked inspectors , refused interviews with key personnel, kicked out the inspectors when they asked the wrong questions, and refused to answer questions that could have cleared their name, etc...
    Like I said, who wants a bunch of foreigners running around their country? Iraq tried that and the

    No matter if Iraq actually had active WMDS, didn't have any and was planning on getting more when they had the chance, or never had any since they used them on Iran and the Kurds and planned on being the number one promoter of a WMD free world, they still left over 35 vital questions that they refused to answer about their WMDs. No matter if it was all lies and propaganda or based on what was thought to be reliable intelligence at the time from every major wester intel agency, Iraq refusing to cooperate to confirm their own claims of innocence led to a call to war.....which is what we want to avoid.
    Does not matter? It does matter.

    Actually, the major reason we went in "early" was due to timing...

    There is also a major difference here.....Iran made a deal with the world 25 years ago to stop their nuke ambitions. They lied and no one, not even Iran, denies that they continued their nuke program in secret for 20 years. Now they claim they stopped it again, but are continuing with parts of a nuke program that can used for making weapons so they can have electricity. We already gave them the benefit of the doubt for 20 years. We want to believe they are telling the truth. We have given them a means to clear their name now, but when the inspectors started asking to many questions or wondering why Iran was slipping behind their backs into sealed facilities before inspections, refusing interviews, etc... Their 20 year lie comes back to haunt them.
    And they could not build a bomb in 20 years? lol... something is suspicious.

    We have given them every means to meet their own claimed demands of producing electricity now, faster than their plan, cheaper than their projected plan by having Russia process the nuke energy and shipping it to them. They refused on the sole grounds that it was an insult we provide a solution to meet their goals where they did not own the refineries that produced the nuke energy.
    We, we, we... why can't they do it themselves?


    So you put the US on the same level as Syria and Iran, the top two supporters of terrorists? With Iran who has threatened / promised that it will share it's nuke technology with anyone it pleases, especially unstable gov like Sudan?
    If you live in Iran, then YES, the USA is your "IRAN." If you can understand that (ie looking at it from someone inside iran). You have to look at this from he perspective of both sides and not just the USA.

    The people over there don't like the USA and for good reason. The entire Iraq situation is a mess. Do I love my country? Yes. Would I fight in Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran if someone knocked on the door right now? Without hesitation... I would be leave in 5 minutes. Do I agree with all of our policies? No. Do I agree with all of our actions? No.

    If we were threatening to wipe a country off the face of the earth due to religious differences, supporting multiple organizations that got off on targeting innocent civilians with as violent means as possible, publicly denounce and ignore the Treaty on the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT), and were more than willing to share our Nuke technology with genocidal govs, then yes....I would seriously question our right to have a nuclear arsenal and possess the technology and means to produce it. And I think the rest of the world would agree.
    I often hear of Iran supporting this group or that group... considering the intelligence we have had out of the cia over the last eight years, I'd be careful on what what I considered "factual" and what I considered "maybe-well-sorta" information.
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  18.    #258  
    Before I take the time respond to all the points with documented references, I have to ask have you followed this thread and the previous Iran thread at all? All of the points I made have been documented and cited.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Like I said, who wants a bunch of foreigners running around their country? Iraq tried that and the

    Does not matter? It does matter.

    Actually, the major reason we went in "early" was due to timing...
    You missed my point. Iraq purposely left room for doubt when they could have cleared their name. After the war they found docs that stated Iraq purposely were going to continue to not allow UMSCOM to confirm they did not have active WMDs available because they did not Iran to know that.

    Iran already lied for the last 20 years and now they have a chance to clear their name that nearly all the major Western Countries and several Middle East Countries are questioning Iran with valid concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    And they could not build a bomb in 20 years? lol... something is suspicious.
    Uhm....maybe because of how hard it is to do. Let alone trying to do it, get the materials, get the information, get the talent, and get the machinery necessary to do it without anyone finding out that that is what you are doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    We, we, we... why can't they do it themselves?
    I will re-list the reasons again in the post you replied to....all cited and referenced in the two Iran threads:

    • Publicly denounce and ignore the Treaty on the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT)...this should be enough right there.
    • They have been trying to develop a nuke for 20 years against their agreement with the world.
    • They have already stated that as soon as they get their nuke program up and running they will have no problem sharing it with unstable, rogue, and genocidal govs.
    • They are the number one Gov supporting of terrorists. Hez.
    • The United Nations have unanimously voted 3 times for sanctions against Iran for refining their own nuke materials that could be used for nuke warheads.


    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    If you live in Iran, then YES, the USA is your "IRAN." If you can understand that (IE looking at it from someone inside Iran). You have to look at this from he perspective of both sides and not just the USA.

    The people over there don't like the USA and for good reason. The entire Iraq situation is a mess. Do I love my country? Yes. Would I fight in Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran if someone knocked on the door right now? Without hesitation... I would be leave in 5 minutes. Do I agree with all of our policies? No. Do I agree with all of our actions? No.
    Again I don't think you have read any of the references about the people of Iran from this thread. There are numerous sources from nearly all the major news agencies that shows that the majority (or at least a large percentage) of the Iranian people do not dislike the USA. It is the gov that hates the USA.....BIG difference and one that I have always said would be the reason of the ultimate tragedy if this every blew up into a full scale war.

    But you again ignored what I said. This is NOT a USA thing as you make it out to be. All the negotiations to stop Iran from refining nuke fuel have been lead by Germany, France, Russian, Belgium, and by multiple unanimous votes in the United Nations. Now even Saudi Arabia and several other Mid East countries are starting to speak out against Iran too over their actions with their nuke program.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I often hear of Iran supporting this group or that group... considering the intelligence we have had out of the cia over the last eight years, I'd be careful on what what I considered "factual" and what I considered "maybe-well-sorta" information.
    So you do not think that Iran supports terrorist organizations? Do you really think that they are not the main supporter for Hez along side Syria? Most of this intel is not from the US but countries in the EU and the Middle East.




    Just so I know where you stand, can you answer these questions:

    Do you feel it is safe for or have any concerns with Iran having a nuclear program that could be abused to be used for making nuke warheads?


    If you do not have any concerns and feel that the Germany, Russia, US, France, Belgium, Spain, and the UN are wrong about their concerns with Iran, given their last 20 year history of lies, and promises to share the technology with rogue nations, and refusing to abide by the Treaty on the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) which is required of all nuclear power nations....why do think they are all wrong?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/29/2008 at 10:42 PM.
  19. #259  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Just so I know where you stand, can you answer these questions:

    Do you feel it is safe for or have any concerns with Iran having a nuclear program that could be abused to be used for making nuke warheads?


    If you do not have any concerns and feel that the Germany, Russia, US, France, Belgium, Spain, and the UN are wrong about their concerns with Iran, given their last 20 year history of lies, and promises to share the technology with rogue nations, and refusing to abide by the Treaty on the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) which is required of all nuclear power nations....why do think they are all wrong?

    Before I answer your questions, I will do as you requested and look over the links you presented... to be honest, I did not look over them... quick glance at best.

    I've been in conversations like this since before we went into iraq. lol.... At any rate, it may take me a day or so to look over and read them... I doubt if my mind or outlook will be changed, but I'll attempt to look over them with an open mind to see if I find anything new.
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  20.    #260  
    theog....if someone is willing to learn about an issue, I am more than willing to help. We have been discussing Iran here since 2005 so we have a couple year track record with Iran referenced all right here in two Iran threads.....though I know a lot of developments & challenges I have read about in the last 10 months never made it into the threads (mostly I think because it was the same thing over again...Iran starts "serious" negotiations, calls them off 1 month later when forced to answer questions, refuses inspections until the cycle starts again). I went thru the two Iran threads and listed several links below according to the topics we just discussed above. "Post ##" means this thread. "Other post ##" means the other Iran thread. I am sure there are others I overlooked, but this should get you started. I included links for all individual post references (so you don't have to go looking for each one) and I simply listed the post numbers for blocks of posts talking about a subject so you can easily find them. I hope this helps :

    The 20 years before this all came to light
    can be found with a valuable & very educational discussion from post #99 to post #112 of this thread, other post 1, other post 5, other post 26, other post 101,


    Summary of what solutions have been presented to Iran that they have rejected
    in post 160, post 195 and in & post 69, US offering to give Iran nuke power for electricity needs in post 73, other post 20, other post 128,


    The Iranian people,
    what they are subject to under their current gov, and some of their opinions can be found in posts 125 & 129 and a discussion between posts #217-229. Then again in post 238 & 239, post 252, post 67, post 78,


    Iran possible connections to terrorist orgs:
    Post 165, post 245, post 138, post 141, post 89, post 118, post 120, post 42, post 79, other post 22, other post 35, other post 122, other post 175,


    Other countries beside's USA opinion of Iran:
    Post 251, Other post 4, post 241, France in Post 166 and post 168, other post 56,


    Iran developing nuke weapon program
    Post 166 and in post 240, could have nuke in 3 years in post 156, N Korea (scary by themselves) helping Iran with nuke test in post 113, post 4, other post 170, post 242,


    Timing of concerns of Iraq vs Iran in
    Other post 3, post 175, post 110,post 71, from Iraq thread, another from Iraq thread, timeline between Iraq and Iran,


    UN Counsel against Iran found in
    post 121, post 142, post 81, post 84, post 80, other post 25, other post 37,


    Iran Resisting Inspections
    other post 1, Post 253, Post 254, Other post 9, other post 28, other post 34, other post 149,


    Iran threats other nations
    Posts 143, post 118, post 43, other post 62, other post 134, other post 159, other post 170,


    Iran sharing technology with other unstable gov
    Post 47, other post 157,

    Iran threatening withdrawal from NPT:
    post 62


    I should add this to the OP as it is basically an index to date.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/30/2008 at 03:26 PM.

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