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  1. #201  
    War for oil is the biggest myth.

    It's not cost effective, and never results in lower prices.

    You think after we saved Kuwait, they would've hooked a brother up, but nooooo...

    If it was war for oil, we would've broken our foot off in Hugo Chavez's *** and done regime chance down in V-Land. But not, let the dictator pursue his ways.

    The world loves to paint the US as ruthless, but we are hardly that.
  2.    #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Not for your info Hobbes, because you know this, but for the others here it may be useful to know that Iran's nuclear program has not been some sort of secret kept from us by anyone's lies. Iran's nuclear program has been a well documented item for many years since the 50s when the US gave them nuclear technology in the first place.

    http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Iran/1825.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran

    n.b. Notwithstanding the title of this thread, the idea that Iran really wants to develop nuclear weapons, in addition to nuclear power, does not seem too controversial to me.

    anyway nice to see you Hobbes
    Yup....we had this valuable & very educational discussion from post #99 to post #112 of this thread!
  3. #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    War for oil is the biggest myth.
    Only when the phrase is not understood.

    It's not cost effective, and never results in lower prices.
    What you state above is not at all the purpose of the US interest in oil. What GHWB stated was that pushing Iraq out of Kuwait was to guarantee no significant challenges to the continued distribution of oil, therefore keeping world markets relatively calm and economies moving along. No one has said anything about getting oil at submarket prices or the like. 2 very distinctively differing concerns that should not be confused.

    You think after we saved Kuwait, they would've hooked a brother up, but nooooo...
    Kuwait was reported to have been guilty of slant-drilling into Iraqi oilfields long prior to the US invasion, according to our own State Dept.
  4. gojeda's Avatar
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    #204  
    So in other words, the GWI was about not letting the Middle East boiling over, which would have resulted in a trauma to the global economy?

    A wholly different statement than what has been vomitted ad-nauseam from the left, that "the war was for oil".
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    So in other words, the GWI was about not letting the Middle East boiling over, which would have resulted in a trauma to the global economy?

    A wholly different statement than what has been vomitted ad-nauseam from the left, that "the war was for oil".
    It's not entirely about oil but oil surely had something to do with it. If nothing else I recall the Bushies telling us how the oil revenues would help pay for the war. How's that working out for us? Oh yea...its not working out for us consumers, but it is working out swimmingly well for a close Bush friend, Ray Hunt. It seems our ever-so wise President even had the insight to place Hunt on the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board where he had access to classified information about Iraq. Nice.

    Even if there were no wrong doing in this twisted tale I'd bet you're little neocon website in your signature would have 50 hate-articles about the Dems or Clinton if Hunt were their family friend that sits on the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board and has just struck a sweet oil deal with the Kurds. Strangely enough I don't see anything on that neocon web site of yours about Mr. Hunt.
  6. #206  
    Can we see a little condemnation from the lefties for Iran supplying arms, assinating officials, and sending fighters in to Iraq?

    They want to take Iraq over, and the more unstable, the better.

    Iran is killing US Troops, and no one cares.

    Wake up people...
  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Can we see a little condemnation from the lefties for Iran supplying arms, assinating officials, and sending fighters in to Iraq?

    They want to take Iraq over, and the more unstable, the better.

    Iran is killing US Troops, and no one cares.

    Wake up people...
    Who said nobody cares?
  8.    #208  
    I appreciate the War for Oil topic, as I participated in it on this thread as well , but it has become a tagent beyond the scope of this thread. Let's try to get it back on track. Feel free to start another thread to continue this dicussion as it may prove interesting, if it hasn't already run it's course here.

    Thanks!
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    #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    If nothing else I recall the Bushies telling us how the oil revenues would help pay for the war.
    So you are claiming that Iraqi oil is not being used to defray a small portion of the costs......however big or small the contribution might be?

    How's that working out for us? Oh yea...its not working out for us consumers, but it is working out swimmingly well for a close Bush friend, Ray Hunt. It seems our ever-so wise President even had the insight to place Hunt on the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board where he had access to classified information about Iraq. Nice.
    The point here is what again?

    Even if there were no wrong doing in this twisted tale I'd bet you're little neocon website in your signature would have 50 hate-articles about the Dems or Clinton if Hunt were their family friend that sits on the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board and has just struck a sweet oil deal with the Kurds. Strangely enough I don't see anything on that neocon web site of yours about Mr. Hunt.
    So in other words, you admit you are demonizing Ray Hunt for based on no particular reality except that Bush appointed him?

    Tsk tsk Modboy....your little campaign of character assasinations have gotten boring of late.
  10.    #210  
    You never know what can be said or not in relation to top secret plans or construed perspective on any possible leaks for simply having contingency plans (which we have confirmation that are always in place and are always updated).

    Bush Denies Plans to Attack Iran

    Oct 5, 5:19 PM (ET)

    WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush denied in an interview with Arab television that the U.S. is gearing up to attack Iran and said he remains committed to working diplomatically to resolve the standoff with Tehran over its nuclear program.

    The president, in an hour-long interview with Al-Arabiya TV, also reiterated his pledge to negotiate with Iran if it gives up its nuclear program.

    "I have said that if they suspend their nuclear program, we will be at the table," Bush said, according to a transcript of the interview the White House released on Friday. "But they have so far refused to do that."

    Bush brushed off as "gossip" reports in the Arab press that he has issued orders to senior U.S. military officials to prepare for an attack on Iran at the end of January or in February.

    "I would call that empty propaganda," Bush said. "Evidently, there's a lot of gossip in the parts of the country - world that try to scare people about me personally or my country or what we stand for. And that kind of gossip is just what it is. It's gossip. It's baseless gossip."

    In the hour-long interview, Bush acknowledged that some people in the Middle East think he is against Islam and is a man or war.

    FULL STORY
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    So you are claiming that Iraqi oil is not being used to defray a small portion of the costs......however big or small the contribution might be?
    Not quite Binaryboy. Unless you think this quote from Paul Wolfowitz to Congress before the war was posturing that Iraqi oil revenues would only defray a small portion of the costs?

    "The oil revenue of that country could bring between 50 and 100 billion dollars over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that could really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon. - Paul Wolfowitz"

    So in other words, you admit you are demonizing Ray Hunt for based on no particular reality except that Bush appointed him?
    Oh no no no...I'm demonizing him because I highly suspect Ray Hunt is another Bush crony that gained access to tremendously valuable information that may have helped him win a lucrative contract with the Kurds. Thats all. And I'm demonizing you and your neocon web site for not even mentioning Ray Hunt.

    Tsk tsk Modboy....your little campaign of character assasinations have gotten boring of late.
    You're endless spinning is nauseating neo. In deference to Hobbes if you'd like to discuss what role oil played in Bush's decision to invade Iraq please start another thread.
  12.    #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    In deference to Hobbes if you'd like to discuss what role oil played in Bush's decision to invade Iraq please start another thread.
    Thanks!
  13. gojeda's Avatar
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    #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    "The oil revenue of that country could bring between 50 and 100 billion dollars over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that could really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon. - Paul Wolfowitz"
    There is nothing particularly false in that statement. Iraq does have the resources to produce that sort of revenue. The problem is that incessant insurgent vandalism has stalled the economic viability of the country.

    Your criticism is misplaced. You should be criticising:

    1. the insurgents
    2. the administration's lack of a comphrensive plan to deal with the insurgents, which only now if beginning to be addressed.

    Oh no no no...I'm demonizing him because I highly suspect Ray Hunt is another Bush crony that gained access to tremendously valuable information that may have helped him win a lucrative contract with the Kurds. Thats all. And I'm demonizing you and your neocon web site for not even mentioning Ray Hunt.
    Hmm..... *may have*.....*could have*.....*might have*.....*I highly suspect*.....

    So you are demonizing someone because you *THINK* he is what you say he is?

    Boooooring.....

    But let us say, for a second, believe your propaganda as fact. So what? If Ray Hunt is an old friend in the oil business....so......what?

    You know, I love how you Clintonistas love to spread your FUD by, for example, barking "Halliburton!", ignoring the fact that Halliburton has been a huge federal contractor since World War II.

    But please, don't let the facts get in the way of your circle-jerk.

    You're endless spinning is nauseating neo.
    So sayeth the forum pied-piper of moveon.org.....LMFAO!!

    In deference to Hobbes if you'd like to discuss what role oil played in Bush's decision to invade Iraq please start another thread.
    How valiant of you, however you are talking the wrong person here. The first person who decided to bring up the oil angle here was your comrade Shortie (in post #194). I suggest you talk to him or her about that.
    Last edited by gojeda; 10/08/2007 at 04:25 AM.
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    There is nothing particularly false in that statement. Iraq does have the resources to produce that sort of revenue. The problem is that incessant insurgent vandalism has stalled the economic viability of the country.
    Yes, I'm sure Wolfowitz wasn't in any way trying to convince congress that this war would cost far less than $1 trillion dollars.

    Your criticism is misplaced. You should be criticising:

    1. the insurgents
    2. the administration's lack of a comphrensive plan to deal with the insurgents, which only now if beginning to be addressed.
    What about the misplaced or missing $20 billion in oil revenues? Can we criticize them for that?

    Hmm..... *may have*.....*could have*.....*might have*.....*I highly suspect*.....

    So you are demonizing someone because you *THINK* he is what you say he is?

    Boooooring.....
    Then don't read it. Seriously....I wouldn't mind at all if you went back to writing your little hate propaganda on that neocon brainwashing site and never came back.

    But let us say, for a second, believe your propaganda as fact. So what? If Ray Hunt is an old friend in the oil business....so......what?

    You know, I love how you Clintonistas love to spread your FUD by, for example, barking "Halliburton!", ignoring the fact that Halliburton has been a huge federal contractor since World War II.

    But please, don't let the facts get in the way of your circle-jerk.
    I actually have only come to appreciate Clinton after his Presidency. I did not vote for him in either election. But do spread you assinine bull$it some more puhleaze because it's all sooooo constructive.

    So sayeth the forum pied-piper of moveon.org.....LMFAO!!
    I don't read it. Seriously, I never have and only look at it when anyone else does and they make the news with some controversial ad. I do read mediamatters.org if you'd like to pick on me over something factual rather than your dilusional rheotorical assertions.

    How valiant of you, however you are talking the wrong person here. The first person who decided to bring up the oil angle here was your comrade Shortie (in post #194). I suggest you talk to him or her about that.
    Unlike you, I happen to respect someone like Hobbes and a few others up here that have differing view points than mine since they at least understand the concept of "integrity". While things may get heated from time to time I don't think we've had nearly the problems that you've created since bringing your neocon stench to this other wise decent forum.

    Hobbes, forgive me for responding to this troll. I'll bow out (again).
    Last edited by moderateinny; 10/08/2007 at 09:59 AM.
  15. gojeda's Avatar
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    #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Yes, I'm sure Wolfowitz wasn't in any way trying to convince congress that this war would cost far less than $1 trillion dollars.
    Government cost overruns...oh gee, like that never happens.

    What about the misplaced or missing $20 billion in oil revenues? Can we criticize them for that?
    Write the general account office.

    I actually have only come to appreciate Clinton after his Presidency. I did not vote for him in either election. But do spread you assinine bull$it some more puhleaze because it's all sooooo constructive.
    To each his own. I think we are feeling the effects of his Presidency...and I didn't vote for him either time as well.

    I don't read it. Seriously, I never have and only look at it when anyone else does and they make the news with some controversial ad. I do read mediamatters.org if you'd like to pick on me over something factual rather than your dilusional rheotorical assertions.
    So you do not read MoveOn, but you are apparently proud that you read Mediamatters? LOL!! That is like saying, "I dont read Penthouse, but I read Playboy for the articles." LMFAOO!!!

    Unlike you, I happen to respect someone like Hobbes and a few others up here that have differing view points than mine since they at least understand the concept of "integrity". While things may get heated from time to time I don't think we've had nearly the problems that you've created since bringing your neocon stench to this other wise decent forum.
    "We've"....so now you are speaking for the forum?

    Funny, BARYE welcomed me with open arms...a welcome that was appreciated. He doesn't seem to have to restort to calling people "stupid" when a dissenting view is presented. He actually stays on-topic by providing content, not cyber-hissy fits unlike two people I know.
  16.    #216  
    Please again....let's keep this thread to the topic of Iran. Please take the War for Oil topic to a new thread.

    Thanks.
  17.    #217  
    I know this sounds so conspiracy theory-ish now a days, but I personally know several people from Iran and they have all said that there is a significant faction of the population who oppose Ahmadinejad and what he stands for, his policies, and his rule.

    But they are very scared to speak out. Most of them know of friends or even family members who were known to share these views and have disappeared. Some have confirmed that they are in prison. They said when then go back to visit they are VERY careful what they say, who they talk to, where they go, and who they are associated with because since they are Iranians coming from America they are potentially higher profile targets.

    Again, I am only relating what they have shared with me.

    Iranian Students Stage Rare Demonstration Against Ahmadinejad
    Monday, October 08, 2007


    TEHRAN, Iran An estimated 100 students staged a rare demonstration Monday against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, calling him a "dictator," which prompted scuffles with hardline students at Tehran University.

    Ahmadinejad, who was giving a speech to a select group at the university to mark the beginning of the academic year, ignored the chants of "death to the dictator" and continued with his speech on the merits of science and the pitfalls of Western-style democracy, witnesses said.

    ----------------

    Iran's reform movement peaked in the late 1990s after former reformist president Mohammad Khatami was elected and his supporters swept parliament. But hardliners who control the judiciary, security forces and powerful unelected bodies in the government stymied attempts to ease social and political restrictions.

    Numerous pro-reform newspapers were shut down, and since Ahmadinejad's election in 2005, those that remain have been muted in their criticism fearing closure.

    FULL STORY
    This is why if there is a War it will be really sad because there are so many citizens who do not support their gov efforts, views, and policies.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 10/09/2007 at 11:59 AM.
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    #218  
    You know, it is often repeated in the press that a significant portion of the Iranian population opposes Admandinejad. My question is where are these people and why aren't they making their voices heard?

    Iran is not Myanmar. It is not a closed society. Tehran is actually a cosmopolitan city. It would seem that if there was a strong undercurrent in Iranian society that are against the hard-liners, there would be more in the way, at the very least, mass demonstrations.

    Perhaps many in Iran are against their President, but I get the feeling that aside from fear, there is a great deal of apathy as well. I don't think Iranians want to see another revolution (in this case, a revolution for the revolution), even if it could potentially remove a man who is slowly, but surely, guiding his country towards a showdown with the international community, one where Iran will utlimately be on the losing side of.
    Last edited by gojeda; 10/09/2007 at 01:51 PM.
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I know this sounds so conspiracy theory-ish now a days, but I personally know several people from Iran and they have all said that there is a significant faction of the population who oppose Ahmadinejad and what he stands for, his policies, and his rule.

    But they are very scared to speak out. Most of them know of friends or even family members who were known to share these views and have disappeared. Some have confirmed that they are in prison. They said when then go back to visit they are VERY careful what they say, who they talk to, where they go, and who they are associated with because since they are Iranians coming from America they are potentially higher profile targets.

    This is why if there is a War it will be really sad because there are so many citizens who do not support their gov efforts, views, and policies.
    Good to see the exercising of Free Speech without the need for military intervention to protect it. One has to wonder what may become of those who dissent in a theocratic society and government, however. Wonder what would happen to protesting citizens who do not support their gov efforts, views, and policies who chant "Death to the dictator" outside a venue where Bush speaks.
  20.    #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    You know, it is often repeated in the press that a significant portion of the Iranian population opposes Admandinejad. My question is where are these people and why aren't they making their voices heard?

    Iran is not Myanmar. It is not a closed society. Tehran is actually a cosmopolitan city. It would seem that if there was a strong undercurrent in Iranian society that are against the hard-liners, there would be more in the way, at the very least, mass demonstrations.

    Perhaps many in Iran are against their President, but I get the feeling that aside from fear, there is a great deal of apathy as well. I don't think Iranians want to see another revolution (in this case, a revolution for the revolution), even if it could potentially remove a man who is slowly, but surely, guiding his country towards a showdown with the international community, one where Iran will utlimately be on the losing side of.
    I don't doubt any of your observations....mainly because I am not there and I don't think many of us truly have a clear perspective of the realities of the political climate within it's population vs the gov. But from the Iranians I talk to, there is a great deal of fear. The gov can now imprison a person (and they do) with no formal charges or with charges that are processed through a gov controled court system. How wide spread or frequent this is, I am not sure, but there have been loads of articles about American/Iranians being detained right now and personal experiences that have been shared with me tend to give the impression it happens enough to install a controlling amount of fear. I doubt that many would disagree that this is fact....the speculation of my observations comes in with the degree of this fear control factor.

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