Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36
  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Depends on the angle you look at it.. a jump from 11 to 13 suicides is a significant jump...
    But regardless of how you calculate it, any rise is a bad thing..
    I guess my point was that such a small number could be attributed by a couple of guys committing suicide in January rather than December. Of course, it could be a sign of things to come but, unfortunately, we really won't know the whole picture until we can look at it in the context of a larger span of time. Saying, the highest rate since 1999 strikes me more of sensationalism than a trend. Saying, the highest rate since 1990 or 1980, on the other hand, would be concerning.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Mmm I wouldnt neccecarily see that a a bad attitude against vets, more against the recruiting tactics of the army..
    The part in fahrenheit 911 (which is way biased off course) seemed to be an fairly honest representation of how the army recruits. (it made a lot of sense to me, if I was recruiting for the army I would have thought of doing it that way too)
    Well, maybe we can get the input of some of the other guys here. But, when I see a sign that says "F*** the Army", I'm not really seeing a distinction being made between recruiters and soldiers.
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Mmm I wouldnt neccecarily see that a a bad attitude against vets, more against the recruiting tactics of the army..
    The part in fahrenheit 911 (which is way biased off course) seemed to be an fairly honest representation of how the army recruits. (it made a lot of sense to me, if I was recruiting for the army I would have thought of doing it that way too)
    I grew up in that very neighborhood. That shopping mall with the recruiters in farenheight 9/11 is where i used to buy my school clothes.

    It looks so much worse than how i remember it as a kid.

    And yes, if you want an idea of why the girl in the photo is upset. Just take a look at the racial and socio economic makeup of the recruits.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I guess my point was that such a small number could be attributed by a couple of guys committing suicide in January rather than December. Of course, it could be a sign of things to come but, unfortunately, we really won't know the whole picture until we can look at it in the context of a larger span of time. Saying, the highest rate since 1999 strikes me more of sensationalism than a trend. Saying, the highest rate since 1990 or 1980, on the other hand, would be concerning.
    true..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  5. #25  
    geez --- am I being too indirect when I use the example of the numbers of suicides amongst British war veterans to illustrate that the true concern should be for these soldiers' long term psychic health --

    that the depth of personal trauma suffered by nearly all who have been sent there is already unprecedented (I have read somewhere that as many as 44% return with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) of some degree).

    That we should be far more worried about these long term non visible injuries that have been suffered by these guys.

    They have been sent on the worst mission any american army has ever had to endure -- in some ways worse than vietnam.

    They are in a foriegn land, with very foriegn languages, religions,and cultures. They are being ambushed by people dressed the same as the ones they are ostensibly assigned to protect.

    Deaf to the words shouted at them, they can't know what people say or truly feel.

    Vietnam had at least some safety and stability in the mostly secure urban areas of Saigon, Danang etc. Americans in iraq are never secure even within their own parimeters -- that causes a level of stress that is likely worse than vietnam
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/22/2006 at 01:16 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by geatches
    Him and that darn Cheney.
    You Democrats make me laughhhhh. Most of you Democrats seem to have an unquenchable desire to prove your net worth on the Bush Office.

    Your net worth, you may be wondering, is only a couple of moments of entertainment value. that's it, nothing more.

    As a side note....I know a really ignorant Democrat in San Diego, where my home is. He thinks Bush cheated Gore out of winning the 2004 election. How dumb is that.

    Come on everybody, laugh out loud with me on that dumb a$$
    idea.....

    MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Chuck
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    They have been sent on the worst mission any american army has ever had to endure -- in some ways worse than vietnam.
    I'm sorry Barye, but that's a bit much to bear. Are you sure you really want to compare the severity of the mission in Iraq with, say, WWII? Do you know about the Battle of the Bulge? Normandy? Iwo Jima? I honestly don't know how you would come to such a conclusion in the absence of your hatred for Bush.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by chckhbrt
    You Democrats make me laughhhhh...
    Hey Chuck, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure geaches was being sarcastic.
  9.    #29  
    lol
  10. #30  
    When comparing military suicide rates between 1999 and now, begs the question of what are comparable stats of military suicide rates between from a period of 4 years before a war and 3 yrs since being active in a war?

    I mean do we have the stats from the military suicide rate from 1937 vs 1944 with WWII? Or from 1912 vs 1919 with WWI? Or 1961 vs 1968 with the Vietnam War?

    I don't know if this is a trend that falls in line with other similar historical situations, if the current rise is well below what historically has happened, or if we are currently setting new records?
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Hey Chuck, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure geaches was being sarcastic.
    You are correct sir, tongue was firmly in cheek. My wife nearly went unconscious laughing when I showed her someone called me a dem!
    Freedom of some speech in the US, through someone in the UK.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I'm sorry Barye, but that's a bit much to bear. Are you sure you really want to compare the severity of the mission in Iraq with, say, WWII? Do you know about the Battle of the Bulge? Normandy? Iwo Jima? I honestly don't know how you would come to such a conclusion in the absence of your hatred for Bush.
    hoovs -- the Battle of the Bulge, Normandy, and Iwo Jima were bloody dififcult battles. No doubt many veterans of those fights awoke for decades soaked in sweat and hugging imaginary foxholes.

    But at least they had had the clarity of a fighting and dying in a just and unavoidable war -- one where our freedom, our families, and our future was truly in the balance.

    And they also had adversaries who (usually) wore distinct uniforms, and semi played by the semi-official rules of war. They were not faced with having to distinguish civilian friend/foe whom they could not understand -- either in their language or customs.

    Polls have shown increasing weariness in the troops there -- and a growing awareness that they were put into that cauldron based on a deliberate lie. (60 Minutes is scheduled to have a very imporant segment on this topic, Sunday).

    By its very nature this war is much more psychically exhausting than the severity of the combat itself would indicate. Young men worried about their own survival are, in moments of high stress, killing civilians, even children -- and are sometimes haunted by those memories for the remainder of their own lives ...

    Since Vietnam what sane american has ever thought to commit our military into a hostile occupation where we would have to resist an intesely motivated insurgency fought among people we could not understand. (unless you count bush senior who sent our forces into Somalia, or Reagan into Lebanon ...)

    Again, its not the severity of the combat itself which is the only or even primary cause of psychic injury -- it is the entirety of the experience...

    [btw -- I may in fact now be an emperior temporarily without portfolio, but I insist on being addressed with the proper protocol -- BARYE is all CAPS ]
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #33  
    Lighten up, Frances.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    But at least they had had the clarity of a fighting and dying in a just and unavoidable war -- one where our freedom, our families, and our future was truly in the balance.
    So do our troops in Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    And they also had adversaries who (usually) wore distinct uniforms, and semi played by the semi-official rules of war. They were not faced with having to distinguish civilian friend/foe whom they could not understand -- either in their language or customs.
    How does that change the objective? Should we cut-and-run like the French fwhen faced with the Vietminh?

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Polls have shown increasing weariness in the troops there -- and a growing awareness that they were put into that cauldron based on a deliberate lie. (60 Minutes is scheduled to have a very imporant segment on this topic, Sunday).
    Thats odd because none of the troops I hear from express any such "awareness". On the contrary, they are more likely to say that tell me not to listen to the news media over here because they have it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    By its very nature this war is much more psychically exhausting than the severity of the combat itself would indicate. Young men worried about their own survival are, in moments of high stress, killing civilians, even children -- and are sometimes haunted by those memories for the remainder of their own lives ...
    If true, it would seem to make it all the more important that you and I support them in their mission and when they return.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    [btw -- I may in fact now be an emperior temporarily without portfolio, but I insist on being addressed with the proper protocol -- BARYE is all CAPS ]
    Noted. My apologies BARYE.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    How does that change the objective? Should we cut-and-run like the French when faced with the Vietminh?
    learning from the disasters of others can protect us from our own --

    The French reoccupied a foriegn land that they did not understand, and whose "insurgents" they did not respect.

    They did not lose just because they were French -- they lost because of hubris -- because of arrogance and stupidity ...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    If true, it would seem to make it all the more important that you and I support them in their mission and when they return.
    Sadly the fate of those who return is often unemployment, bankruptcy, and neglect -- while those whose bodies were shattered in the war are often given little help once they leave Walter Reed and are given their discharge.

    BTW -- I'm dissapointed that no one has picked up on my original post regarding the experience of British Falkland war veterans who have had more suicides in the 20 years after their war experience, than during their original combat.

    I don't know of such comphrensive studies of Vietnam Vets, but I fear that Iraq veterans are going to suffer gravely -- stress related depression is a lingering slow killer ...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Noted. My apologies BARYE.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    When comparing military suicide rates between 1999 and now, begs the question of what are comparable stats of military suicide rates between from a period of 4 years before a war and 3 yrs since being active in a war?

    I mean do we have the stats from the military suicide rate from 1937 vs 1944 with WWII? Or from 1912 vs 1919 with WWI? Or 1961 vs 1968 with the Vietnam War?

    I don't know if this is a trend that falls in line with other similar historical situations, if the current rise is well below what historically has happened, or if we are currently setting new records?

    I haven't seen any comprehensive studies made of all returning american war veterans, where suicides were the specific issue being examined.

    That's why I find the English Falkland war study so disturbing.

    As I'm sure you know -- the Falklands war was a short, simple, and fairly unambiguous morally.

    And it was fought by professional highly trained and motivated warriors. They were not reservists and National Guardsmen -- which many of our soldiers have been.

    Yet they have had a tremedous number of suicides during the 20 years subsequent to their war.


    From the BBC:

    "... What is not commonly known is the mental cost of the war. A large number of my former brothers in arms suffer from the acute mental illness; post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). So much so that the number of Falkland War suicide casualties now outweighs the numbers lost in the fighting.

    Also a large number of Falkland veterans failed to come to terms with what they had done and witnessed "down south" as the islands are known to the veterans' community, and spiralled downwards out of control.

    They now inhabit the doorways and refuges of the homeless..."


    an Argentine veteran:

    "...When we invaded the Falklands (or Malvinas as we know them) I remember the unheralded sense of nationalism that spread through Buenos Aires.

    It emanated from the newspapers, TV and even from our teachers' mouths.

    In hindsight, it seems only logical that our corrupted and decadent dictatorship was trying to hold on to power by any means possible. It was total madness."
    Diego, Argentina
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/23/2006 at 03:42 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions