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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Oh a community center, not a public school.

    OK, you said inner city school, so silly me thought you meant an inner city school.
    Some of the ctc's are in schools, some are in publicly and privately funded family or community centers. How is the relevant again?
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I know this is a little off topic, but..........I taught At-Risk Students for quite a number of years in a dedicated facility in a program that was set up basically to give those students their last chance for a public education (which accepted kids from 4 school districts), due to drugs, gang membership, anger management, whole range of abuses, etc.... We have quite a large Mexican community in our area where I taught, but found it was not dominated by any one race in our geo area.

    During the course of our work with these students, we spent as much time with the parents as we could. There is one common thread that with VERY few exceptions seem to span all the students we had. It was the one common cause that over shadowed any other common similarities like race, economic status, which side of the tracks they came from, etc.... And that is family issues, whether that is parent abandonment, drug addicted parents, abusive parents, dysfunctional families, single parent situations, etc.....

    Now, with that said....most (but not all) of the families were from the lower income bracket with a fair shake from the middle class as well. But from extensive interviews, and time spent with families, interview siblings and parents, the number one reason for most of the families economic situations had nothing to do with race or what address they had but with the consequences of choices they (the parents) have made. These ranged from the basics as it is easier to be on welfare than to work (i.e. professional welfare drawers), dependence on drugs and alcohol, simply lazy, becoming pregnant at 14-16 years old and dropping out of school, totally self absorbed with their own wants / needs to the exclusive of the children, etc....

    Having worked in that field for so long I was often amazed at how many people, organization, studies, etc... totally ignored the personal choices that put families in their current economic situation and focused only on ethnicity. I am in no way saying there is not ethnic disparity, but that I have seen cases and studies that seem to USE the ethnic orientation as the reason (or excuse) for the challenges they are trying to show and ignore all other aspects of why and exclude any other possibility of causes.
    I see all of the same issues Hobbes. Some of the parents are there in the center because we help them to take parenting classes, because a court has ruled they literally do not have the minimum skills required to raise children.

    The problem is, "personal responsibility" is about as usefull in this context as "family values". It's a neat slogan helps win elections, but it is not much use to the 6 year old who's mom doesn't give a **** about her education or upbringing.

    It does give us a nice way to wash our hands of the problem though.
  3. #103  
    What??? Wash our hands of it???? Is that what you read out of my post????

    I was simply addressing some of the orgs, people, political parties, and studies who do flat out blame the ethnic orientation or economic class as THE reason, crutch, disadvantage,etc... for many of the problems...as if there was no other factor in the problem. How many times have you seen a study showing the disparity of various ethnic or economic groups and also showing the relating information of how many in those polled groups have been convicted of possession of drugs, abuse of their children, neglect of children, length of time on welfare, etc... You generally don't. They often times focus only on just the one single fact that they are economical or racial victims as if just because they are black, Hispanic, poor, etc, is the reason for the problem.

    So I am no sure what you are saying? That Personal Responsibility and Accountability should be the factor we "wash our hands" of? Do you ignore Personal Responsibility such as the drug use, alcoholism, neglect, unwillingness to get a job when they are available, etc..
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 04/17/2006 at 04:25 PM.
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    #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Some of the ctc's are in schools, some are in publicly and privately funded family or community centers. How is the relevant again?
    The simple relevance is that you make lots of statements that appear to have absolutely zero validity.

    Your magic 3-1 ratio, the public schools that are really community centers operating out of a school that is privately funded, your inner city migrant farm workers.

    Your spinning has gotten out of control
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    That Personal Responsibility and Accountability should be the factor we "wash our hands" of? Do you ignore Personal Responsibility such as the drug use, alcoholism, neglect, unwillingness to get a job when they are available, etc..
    Huh? You didnt understand my post? It's pretty simple. How exactly does "personal responsiblity" factor in to this argument? Do you have some "personal responsibility" legislation in mind? Are my migrant worker kids personally responsible that their parents cut my grass for $8 an hour? Is the inner city girl personally responsible because her mom visit the ivy lane center for parenting classes?

    And what relevance does personal responsibilty have to this debate apart from an opportunity for us to comfortably shift the blame and get back to our cappuccino?

    Cardio, go to college, then come back and talk to me.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Huh? You didnt understand my post? It's pretty simple. How exactly does "personal responsiblity" factor in to this argument? Do you have some "personal responsibility" legislation in mind?

    And what relevance does personal responsibilty have to this debate apart from an opportunity for us to comfortably shift the blame and get back to our cappuccino?
    Let's see....I guess you are right.. ..any legislation concerning neglecting children, drug use, being abusive, limiting benefits / time tables for welfare, increasing job skills opportunities and accountability for job searching, enforcing illegal immigration, etc.... is pretty unfathomable.

    You are on this claiming of pass the buck thing, when I have made no mention so far of an any course of action, simply talking about the reality of the situation....the heart of the matter.....a perspective on reality.....which you have failed to acknowledge. It seems that you are giving a free pass.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 04/19/2006 at 12:19 AM.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Let's see....I guess you are right.. ..any legislation concerning neglecting children, drug use, being abusive, limiting benefits / time tables for welfare, increasing job skills opportunities and accountability for job searching, enforcing illegal immigration, etc.... is pretty unfathomable.

    You are on this claiming of pass the buck thing, when I have made no mention so far of an any course of action, simply talking about the reality of the situation....the heart of the matter.....a perspective on reality.....which you have failed to acknowledge. It seems that you are giving a free pass.
    Nope, read my post, i said i see it all the time. One of the kids hates it when his mom comes out of parenting class, and would rather learn to use the mouse to click on cookie monster. Neglecting children is illegal, drug use is illegal, abuse is illegal.

    Limiting benefits / time tables for welfare? Lol

    Increasing job skills? We have programs for that also, it's not free.

    Accountability for job searching? Huh? What would you suggest we do to the children of parents who won't work? Oh that's right, give them less money. Nothing helps an at risk child like less money, that's what i always say.

    Enforcing illegal immigration... Yes that would sort of solve the problem at the Aloma center. If we just called INS in to round up all the migrant workers and their children and deported them, it would technically mean i dont have to teach them computer skills. You got me on that one. But as president Bush says ... "Who would keep our grass nice and green?" It's a tough one, we hate them and want them to go, but we also want to continue exploiting them. Sort of a catch 22 between biggotry and greed wouldnt you say? To bad theres not a way to let the migrant workers stay but leave their kids back in mexico right?

    On the subject of "giving a free pass" to the underclass. That is not what I am saying, but as long as we are talking about reality, let's accept the reality that there is no way to hold "accountable" the parent without holding the kids accountable as well.

    And it is very easy to tell ourselves they are in their situation because they are too lazy to work or... how did you put it? ... "arent accountable for job searching".
  8. #108  
    It is funny, you have similar reaction to many on the extreme far left. When only trying to recognize some of the problems or challenges that are involved in the issue, whenever accountability is mentioned....I can physically see them cringe. To get them to sometimes recognize that there are other issues beyond race and economic problems or to go beyond a victim mentality is nearly impossible.

    I haven't even touched any possible solutions yet....you keep on jumping straight there without out any discussion or acknowledgment of many of the issues that must be faced. I have ONLY been trying to talk about challenges....that is the first step.

    There are some solutions....some have worked and some have failed. Some are certainly bad for the children....while others are hard for the kids, but better than other alternatives or what is happening to them right now. This is a tough subject on a threaded forum to discuss, because circumstances and challenges can very greatly from one geo area to another, plus you add in the fact that it is such a deep topic full of emotion, tragedy, and often times nothing more than pure dispair...and one that is dear to me as I have devoted so much of my life in dealing with it and helping one family or child at a time deal with the realities of their situations, facing them, and finding a way to overcome them....without giving into a victim mentality, this is the way it is groove, or there is nothing I can do about it since it is someone else's fault perspective.

    I am on the road for the next several days so will have to continue this later this week or beginning of next.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 04/19/2006 at 12:18 AM.
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    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Huh? You didnt understand my post? It's pretty simple. How exactly does "personal responsiblity" factor in to this argument? Do you have some "personal responsibility" legislation in mind? Are my migrant worker kids personally responsible that their parents cut my grass for $8 an hour? Is the inner city girl personally responsible because her mom visit the ivy lane center for parenting classes?

    And what relevance does personal responsibilty have to this debate apart from an opportunity for us to comfortably shift the blame and get back to our cappuccino?

    Cardio, go to college, then come back and talk to me.
    OOOOOH, you got me, go to college . How about telling the facts without trying to sensationalize. You make statements, then when anyone asks where the information came from you spin into antoher discussion. You readily use phrases that a laced with emotion and half truths to make your argument. I applaud your efforts in working with the underprivalged (regardless of community center or inner city school), but at some point we have to stop just treating symptoms and start treating the core issues. If we can not correct the core issue we will never stop treating the symptoms. Yes, sometimes we have to be the bad guy and hold adults responsible for their actions, yes, sometimes that may even mean removing the child from the situation for a little while. The seperation will be hard, it will be emotional, but it can result in a much healthier (mentally, emotionally and physically) environment once we correct the core issue. If the parents will not work as you say, the children are at risk and that means we need to take the appropriate action to ensure the safety and welfare of the child.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  10. #110  
    Cardio, go to college, then come back and talk to me.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    It is funny, you have similar reaction to many on the extreme far left. When only trying to recognize some of the problems or challenges that are involved in the issue, whenever accountability is mentioned....I can physically see them cringe. To get them to sometimes recognize that there are other issues beyond race and economic problems or to go beyond a victim mentality is nearly impossible....
    I think this tendency stems from a view many hold that people are inherently good, but are "corrupted" by bad circumstances. I find that we are all capable of unspeakable deeds, but through circumstances have learned varying levels of restraint.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    OOOOOH, you got me, go to college . How about telling the facts without trying to sensationalize. You make statements, then when anyone asks where the information came from you spin into antoher discussion. You readily use phrases that a laced with emotion and half truths to make your argument. I applaud your efforts in working with the underprivalged (regardless of community center or inner city school), but at some point we have to stop just treating symptoms and start treating the core issues. If we can not correct the core issue we will never stop treating the symptoms. Yes, sometimes we have to be the bad guy and hold adults responsible for their actions, yes, sometimes that may even mean removing the child from the situation for a little while. The seperation will be hard, it will be emotional, but it can result in a much healthier (mentally, emotionally and physically) environment once we correct the core issue. If the parents will not work as you say, the children are at risk and that means we need to take the appropriate action to ensure the safety and welfare of the child.
    No, i just got the vibe that you never attended college, I could be wrong. Huh? It IS at inner city schools.
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