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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Thats not what Im saying. If you polled troops and gave them a choice between staying and fighting, or going home to their families, what would you expect?

    Then you didn't read the article because that's not what the troops in Iraq are saying.
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    You ofcourse didnt say anything about this part from the story

    If it makes you feel better I will.

    The article also has this line. "Despite their stated frustrations, soldiers say they are prepared to keep coming back. Many here have reenlisted for another four years and throughout the Army reenlistment rates are up"

    Now what's your point?
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    If it makes you feel better I will.

    The article also has this line. "Despite their stated frustrations, soldiers say they are prepared to keep coming back. Many here have reenlisted for another four years and throughout the Army reenlistment rates are up"

    Now what's your point?

    I think a better question is, what's your point? Why this whole thread anyway?
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    This poll does highlight the fact that many soldiers don't have a clear sense of the mission. If you don't know what your objective is, how do you know when you're done?
    The poll blatantly stated that the overwhelming (80%) number of soldiers have clear idea of their objective in Iraq. It's just wrong is alll.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The poll blatantly stated that the overwhelming (80%) number of soldiers have clear idea of their objective in Iraq. It's just wrong is alll.
    When I tried to google about this poll to see the methodology, questions, ect....I didn't find much except for this:

    Consider this poll finding: 85 percent of the troops who believe that the United States should exit Iraq in the coming year also said that the U.S. mission there is mainly "to retaliate for Saddam's role in the 9/11 attacks." How can we reconcile the so-called wisdom of the former with the demonstrable falsehood of the latter?

    In short, we can't. Asking young soldiers and Marines about national strategy is almost as fruitless as asking senior political leaders about platoon-level tactics.
    Here are some other interesting points:

    So it is with most organizations. People near the bottom wear blinders, and their diligent attention to the task at hand is precisely what makes them less qualified to assess the bigger picture.

    This phenomenon helps explain Zogby International's recent survey of U.S. troops in Iraq, which reported that 72 percent of them think the U.S. should withdraw within a year. Of course they do. The troops have no control over the broader strategy directing U.S. policy in Iraq, so they are suspicious of it. U.S. soldiers in Normandy in 1944 probably felt the same way.

    ---------------------

    But the uncomfortable reality of polls is that you can't cherry-pick their results. Conclusions that don't support our preconceived notions must be taken along with those that do.

    A less-heralded finding in the Zogby poll was that only 30 percent of the troops said they'd been inadequately supplied with body armor and armored vehicles, a low figure given that media coverage has suggested that the complaint is widespread among soldiers. Nearly two-thirds reported that basic infrastructure and services in Iraq -- electricity, water, healthcare and so on -- have improved in the last year. Ironically, the troops' opinions on these topics, which run against the grain of popular perception, have a much stronger foundation in their daily experience.

    As critics of the Iraq war rallied around that 72 percent figure on withdrawal, defenders of the policy trashed Zogby's methods and questioned the poll's motives. The firm has been tight-lipped about its methodology, citing "security purposes."

    There is, however, one telling hint: A quarter of those surveyed were female, but only about 15 percent of U.S. forces in Iraq are female. This indicates that the sample was skewed toward logistical support troops as opposed to front-line combat forces.

    The attitudinal contrast between front-line and support troops is one of warfare's fabled dichotomies, much like the contrast between an active-duty, infantry-heavy group -- such as the Marines -- and their Reserve and National Guard counterparts. In the survey, nearly 90 percent of polled Reserve and Guard soldiers advocated withdrawal from Iraq within a year, while barely more than half the Marines shared that view.

    http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories...date=3/24/2006
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The poll blatantly stated that the overwhelming (80%) number of soldiers have clear idea of their objective in Iraq. It's just wrong is alll.
    Stop making things up. Please. It's annoying.

    The poll and the article say that 58% said the US mission in Iraq is clear. And 85% believe that we invaded to retaliate for 9/11. So most of them are confused about why we went, and many are unclear about what we are now trying to accomplish.

    You're just wrong is all. And if you're going to post, please stop making things up.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Thats not what Im saying. If you polled troops and gave them a choice between staying and fighting, or going home to their families, what would you expect?
    Then you didn't read the article because that's not what the troops in Iraq are saying.
    I read the article you linked, as well as the Zogby press release. His point is on target.

    For the reasons I laid out in my first post in this thread, the poll is misleading. If you ask people to choose when to pull out all the troops (for example - immediately, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, until the job is done) you'll find most people will pick an answer, leading you to believe that they all favor pulling out all the troops at a certain point in time. Big surprise.

    His point is that soldiers who want to go home will be biased towards picking an earlier date to pull out all the troops.

    But if you give them an option of a gradual reduction of troops, they could pick an answer that would send them home early, yet allow the US to finish the job. It appears that the soldiers were not given that option in the poll.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I think a better question is, what's your point? Why this whole thread anyway?
    I posted a story about the original poll. This story is related. I would have posted it in the older thread but it has dropped off.

    Oh, and contrary to some people's opinions I do care about what our military people are put through and why.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    Stop making things up. Please. It's annoying.

    The poll and the article say that 58% said the US mission in Iraq is clear. And 85% believe that we invaded to retaliate for 9/11. So most of them are confused about why we went, and many are unclear about what we are now trying to accomplish.

    You're just wrong is all. And if you're going to post, please stop making things up.
    Whoa whoa whoa. What the heck am i making up??
  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    I read the article you linked, as well as the Zogby press release. His point is on target.

    For the reasons I laid out in my first post in this thread, the poll is misleading. If you ask people to choose when to pull out all the troops (for example - immediately, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, until the job is done) you'll find most people will pick an answer, leading you to believe that they all favor pulling out all the troops at a certain point in time. Big surprise.

    His point is that soldiers who want to go home will be biased towards picking an earlier date to pull out all the troops.

    But if you give them an option of a gradual reduction of troops, they could pick an answer that would send them home early, yet allow the US to finish the job. It appears that the soldiers were not given that option in the poll.

    No, if you read he article the soldiers for the most part seem to be of the opinion, we accomplished what we came here to do. Let the Iraqis take it now.
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    No, if you read he article the soldiers for the most part seem to be of the opinion, we accomplished what we came here to do. Let the Iraqis take it now.
    You must be reading a different article.

    "When we roll into a neighborhood, it's like a parade with all the young kids running out," says Clevenger. "I think we're definitely making a difference here."

    "I don't want to stay here too much longer. The Iraqi Army is getting to where they can get a hold of things now," says Clevenger

    72 percent of US troops favor withdrawal within the next year.

    "I think we're doing good things here, but I think we need to start pulling it out," Spc. Mathew Merced,

    I read these statements as saying we are seeing progress, we are making a difference, let's continue to hand over control and start pulling it out. Not were done let's leave.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    "I don't want to stay here too much longer. The Iraqi Army is getting to where they can get a hold of things now," says Clevenger

    72 percent of US troops favor withdrawal within the next year.

    "I think we're doing good things here, but I think we need to start pulling it out," Spc. Mathew Merced,

    I read these statements as saying we are seeing progress, we are making a difference, let's continue to hand over control and start pulling it out. Not were done let's leave.
    Yes, I'm stating this is far different than withdrawing troop will be up to the "...the next president...".
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Yes, I'm stating this is far different than withdrawing troop will be up to the "...the next president...".
    Do you believe there will be no US troops in Iraq after the next president leaves office (4 or 8 years)? I think we will have troops there for a long time. How long have we had troops in Germany, Korea, Italy.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  14.    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Do you believe there will be no US troops in Iraq after the next president leaves office (4 or 8 years)? I think we will have troops there for a long time. How long have we had troops in Germany, Korea, Italy.

    Gawd, now your just arguing for arguing's sake. I think you understand what's being said.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    You must be reading a different article.

    "When we roll into a neighborhood, it's like a parade with all the young kids running out," says Clevenger. "I think we're definitely making a difference here."

    "I don't want to stay here too much longer. The Iraqi Army is getting to where they can get a hold of things now," says Clevenger

    72 percent of US troops favor withdrawal within the next year.

    "I think we're doing good things here, but I think we need to start pulling it out," Spc. Mathew Merced,

    I read these statements as saying we are seeing progress, we are making a difference, let's continue to hand over control and start pulling it out. Not were done let's leave.

    At this point, getting people to interpret the numbers in this poll correctly would be like trying to debunk the whole "100,000 Iraqi casualty" myth--a bit like spitting in the wind.
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Gawd, now your just arguing for arguing's sake. I think you understand what's being said.
    The exact reason I questioned your need to start another thread on this dead horse. You refuse to justify the points you make up (80% have no clear idea why they are there) and then get testy when your argument does not hold up to discussion. Yes, I think I do understand what is being said by the administration and the troops on the ground, it is unfortunate you can not be a little more open minded when you google for bad news, try to do more than read the headline before you make up your mind.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    The exact reason I questioned your need to start another thread on this dead horse. You refuse to justify the points you make up (80% have no clear idea why they are there) and then get testy when your argument does not hold up to discussion. Yes, I think I do understand what is being said by the administration and the troops on the ground, it is unfortunate you can not be a little more open minded when you google for bad news, try to do more than read the headline before you make up your mind.
    As I have already mentioned, the older thread on this topic has dropped off or i would have posted there.

    WTF are you talking about, "You refuse to justify the points you make up (80% have no clear idea why they are there) and then get testy when your argument does not hold up to discussion."? What the hell did I MAKE UP?
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    As I have already mentioned, the older thread on this topic has dropped off or i would have posted there.

    WTF are you talking about, "You refuse to justify the points you make up (80% have no clear idea why they are there) and then get testy when your argument does not hold up to discussion."? What the hell did I MAKE UP?

    The poll blatantly stated that the overwhelming (80%) number of soldiers have clear idea of their objective in Iraq. It's just wrong is alll.
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    Where did you get this information? Actually you state they do have a clear idea of their objective, of course I suspect that is a typo on your part, but either way you made up the statement in my opinion
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  19.    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    [B]Where did you get this information? Actually you state they do have a clear idea of their objective, of course I suspect that is a typo on your part, but either way you made up the statement in my opinion
    From the article this thread is talking about:
    "How US troops see Iraq

    According to a Zogby poll of 944 US troops stationed in Iraq:

    72% said the US should leave Iraq within one year.

    29% said US forces should leave Iraq immediately.

    58% said the US mission in Iraq is clear.

    85% believe the US invaded Iraq to retaliate for 9/11 attacks.

    24% said a major reason for invading was to establish a model democracy.

    Source: Zogby International, Jan. 18 - Feb. 14, 2006"


    Yes, I see my play on words regarding my statement is confusing you. The men and women appear to have, IN THEIR MINDS, a 'clear' reason for invading Iraq as evidenced by it's prevalence. That reason however is WHOLLY inaccurate.
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    From the article this thread is talking about:
    "How US troops see Iraq

    According to a Zogby poll of 944 US troops stationed in Iraq:

    72% said the US should leave Iraq within one year.

    29% said US forces should leave Iraq immediately.

    58% said the US mission in Iraq is clear.

    85% believe the US invaded Iraq to retaliate for 9/11 attacks.

    24% said a major reason for invading was to establish a model democracy.

    Source: Zogby International, Jan. 18 - Feb. 14, 2006"


    Yes, I see my play on words regarding my statement is confusing you. The men and women appear to have, IN THEIR MINDS, a 'clear' reason for invading Iraq as evidenced by it's prevalence. That reason however is WHOLLY inaccurate.
    Play on words, is that what you call it when you interpret data to suit your argument. That data from the poll in and of itself is suspect at best since no one will provide the actual questions and the choice of answers available. If you ask 100 people if they believe that 9-11 had anything to do with us going to Iraq I would expect 85 would say yes it played a part, and maybe even more will say that as the documents are being released that discuss the conversations that Saddam and his top aides had with AQ members. And, once again you continue to chant the mantra (against growing evidence) that Saddam and AQ were in no way connected. But, hey that is your MO.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
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