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  1. #41  
    Sopharim,

    You are still teasing us. Out with it man! Tell us which belief system(s) will you proclaim to be the magic bullet in adequately framing the standard of right and wrong for all? Forcing a single religion on all people doesn't always work well. What was it that those crazy pilgrims were fleeing when they took flight from England?
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  2.    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo
    Sopharim,

    You are still teasing us. Out with it man! Tell us which belief system(s) will you proclaim to be the magic bullet in adequately framing the standard of right and wrong for all? Forcing a single religion on all people doesn't always work well. What was it that those crazy pilgrims were fleeing when they took flight from England?
    My preferred belief system has been clearly stated over the past 18 months or so in the Off Topic forum. However, my observation is independent of the belief system in place.

    When I first thought about posting my thoughts, I was going to present a case for Christianity. Then, it occured to me that the observation could be universal. It is not that people have to agree with what the Bible says is right or wrong to co-exist effectively, rather they just have to agree with each other. What belief system is adopted has implications beyond that society , but maintaining the integrity of the society itself only requires agreement within.

    (If you'd like to evaluate my case for christianity, or more aptly, a biblical worldview, I'd be happy to state my position)
  3.    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo
    Forcing a single religion on all people doesn't always work well.
    In fact, it never works well. For the society to co-exist peacefully, the people need to agree. Forcing people to comply with a system of practices will not suffice, especially when you are talking about religious practices.

    Presumably, the practices derive from the religion's tenets. If those tenets are not understood, the practices likely will not be performed adequately, if at all.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    My preferred belief system has been clearly stated over the past 18 months or so in the Off Topic forum. However, my observation is independent of the belief system in place.

    When I first thought about posting my thoughts, I was going to present a case for Christianity. Then, it occured to me that the observation could be universal. It is not that people have to agree with what the Bible says is right or wrong to co-exist effectively, rather they just have to agree with each other. What belief system is adopted has implications beyond that society , but maintaining the integrity of the society itself only requires agreement within.

    (If you'd like to evaluate my case for christianity, or more aptly, a biblical worldview, I'd be happy to state my position)
    Funny how people see what they want to see. When I saw your initial post, religion didn't even enter into my head. Yet others seem to almost need to make it so.


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  5. #45  
    Originally Posted by shopharim
    My preferred belief system has been clearly stated over the past 18 months or so in the Off Topic forum.


    Um, 18 months of sharing doesn't merit some for basis for making an assumption?
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  6. #46  
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  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo
    Originally Posted by shopharim
    My preferred belief system has been clearly stated over the past 18 months or so in the Off Topic forum.


    Um, 18 months of sharing doesn't merit some for basis for making an assumption?
    Sure. However, in TV courtrooms they call the matter "asked and answered"

    When clulup asked what I was really talking about, I said so.

    In times past, I would cut to the chase when prompted, even though my "horse" had not gotten all the way in the gate.

    In this threade, I started with the chase.
  8.    #48  
    In this talk of the "Trojan Horse," am I making an accurate conclusion that commentary on the topic is being reserved until you know "where I'm going with this"?

    It seems like the position is "I don't want to agree with shopharim, because he might try to connect it to that old book."
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    There is a clear distinction between "creating an image" and "creating an image to be an idol,"
    Not really. Exodus 20:4 states quite matter-of-factly: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

    However, I found out something interesting: Moses had terrible math skills! Why else would God have explained to him in Exodus 30:23: "Take the following fine spices: 500 shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much (that is 250 shekels) of fragrant cinnamon...."
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Not really. Exodus 20:4 states quite matter-of-factly: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
    Verses 4 and 5 are to be read in context of verse 3. Notice, verse 4 says do not make them. Verse 5 then says do not bow down to them. If verse 4 were carried out independently, there would be no opportunity to do verse 5 type activities.

    In other words, there is a clear distinction between making the image, and making an idol.

    Great example, in the design of the tabernacle, the covering for the ark of the covenant was to include cherubim (heavenly creatures). If verse 4 was independent of verse 3, the ark itself would be a violation. But, it is not, because the command is to avoid idolatry--i.e. have no gods before the True and Living God.
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    However, I found out something interesting: Moses had terrible math skills! Why else would God have explained to him in Exodus 30:23: "Take the following fine spices: 500 shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much (that is 250 shekels) of fragrant cinnamon...."
    He also had a speech impediment and an apparent inferiority complex. I would say he did a pretty good job serving his nation, especially given these defficiencies.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Not really. Exodus 20:4 states quite matter-of-factly: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
    clulup is showing a great example of one of the biggest mistakes both Christians and non-Christians make when reading the Bible (albeit for different reasons usually), they read a single verse and expect to interpret it on its own.

    clulup, did you forget Ex. 20:5 (the very next verse)? Let me help:

    You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
  12. #52  
    BUT... bringing it back around, this thread is not about religion per se. Correct?
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    clulup is showing a great example of one of the biggest mistakes both Christians and non-Christians make when reading the Bible (albeit for different reasons usually), they read a single verse and expect to interpret it on its own.
    You mean like this?

    Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9
    God CAN be seen:
    "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)
    "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
    "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)

    God CANNOT be seen:
    "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
    "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
    "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

    So, according to you, can God be seen or not? Which is RIGHT and which is WRONG (in order to stay on topic).
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So, according to you, can God be seen or not? Which is RIGHT and which is WRONG (in order to stay on topic).
    Can you say "Red Herring"? Please spare us the cut and paste from your favority websties.
  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    You mean like this?

    Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9
    God CAN be seen:
    "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)
    "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
    "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)

    God CANNOT be seen:
    "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
    "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
    "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

    So, according to you, can God be seen or not? Which is RIGHT and which is WRONG (in order to stay on topic).
    Will you believe once this question is addressed satisfactorily?
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Will you believe once this question is addressed satisfactorily?
    Not as long as I only get back questions to me instead of answers from you and hoovs...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Not as long as I only get back questions to me instead of answers from you and hoovs...
    I didn't ask you anything. That question was rhetorical. I didn't really expect you to spell red herring... but it would be nice if you stopped using them.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Will you believe once this question is addressed satisfactorily?
    Of course not. I wouldn't expect him to give our responses any more thought than he gave the original question when he lifted it verbatim from sites like this, this, or this.
    Last edited by hoovs; 04/04/2006 at 02:00 AM.
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Not as long as I only get back questions to me instead of answers from you and hoovs...
    Understood. My question, though, was will you believe once the question is addressed satisfactorily (i.e. answers instead of questions)?
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Understood. My question, though, was will you believe once the question is addressed satisfactorily (i.e. answers instead of questions)?
    Of course I'll believe. I'll believe I've learned something new.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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