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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    That implies that there are at least some but since they can't legally change their papers and they are frowned upon by society, I can't imagine how they would be easily counted by a census.
    I stand by what I said. Bahrain is a very small community of relatives mainly. Nothing can be hidden. Trust me. We know about anything and everything that happens here, despite it getting media attention or not. I have not heard of any or I will come up here and say "yes there are some but media is surpressed" or something. Practicing muslims converting from thier religion are too rare if they exist.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    That would be a good topic
    Well, I think we discussed the afghan guy to death (speaking of which.. Is he alive?)
    I think thats the topic I'll move on to
    Weekend sound good for that!
  3. cardio's Avatar
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    #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Au contrair..
    this may seem like it, but even if I spread this to 16 months at $25 each, the amount you pay is still the same.
    Where as in an intrest bearing loan, paying it in 8 months or 16 is different.

    In buying and selling, you pay for something or you charge money for something.

    With intrest, money just earns money. That myfriend, I do not agree with.
    Redbelt, I have to agree with Clulup on this issue (that is rare). If you bought an item for $300 and sold it for $400, you made money off the initial $300. It is a play on words nothing else. What was the intent of the law to not charge interest? I would say it was so that those who have, do not take advantage of those who have not. If you buy an item that anyone can buy for $300 and sell it to someone for $400 simply because they do not have the cash you are violating the principle. If you sold it for the original price and let the person pay you off over a period of 8 months, then you would uphold the principle.
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  4.    #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Well, I think we discussed the afghan guy to death (speaking of which.. Is he alive?)
    Last I saw, Italy granted asylum.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Now? I don't think so. But this has little to with it. Politics here are a mess, hold on, world wide is messed up anyway.
    However, In early days of Islam it did pretty well, it even provided alot of services and luxuries that no other country had. Like, they had hospitals in the cleanest parts of town, with free treatments. AND, if you needed to be hospetlized, the government would actually pay you so you don't have to work and remain in bed (of course we have paid sick leaves now). The Islamic empire spread wide and offered the world many new scinces like Alchemy (Arabic: Alkimea) Algebra (A'jabr) + others.
    So yes, it can be and was successfull.
    I do believe that a country that adapts this system will be very stable. It offers human rights, excellant finance basics and family social laws.
    Wait a second, there might have been some good Islamic states, but were they democratic? I think that was the point. Similar to a monarchy, a theocratic oligarchy can be as good as the next one is evil--depending on the group in power.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    The Bahraini citizen's debt is so huge, it is joked that to be Bahraini you have to have a debt first.
    Welcome to America!

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    no it shouldn't.
    the basics are known and agreed upon. intrest not allowed, fine. Murdrers 1st degree to be executed. OK. thats it. end of story. No more interpetation is necessarry.
    In my company, an Islamic Insurance based one, we have a Sharia board. Who monitor our product and make sure they comply. They did not however, suggest a dress code to employees, email sermons or whatever. Its a normal everyday company that the Sharia board offers guidance on its products ONLY and not anything else.
    Exchange my company with state, Sharia board with clerics. There you go, no problem.
    Which Sharia do you use? To my understanding, there are five different schools of interpretation. Also, with a company you're only talking about the bottom line. With a country you're talking about civil liberties, personal preferences, biases, etc. Its not as easy as that. Clerics understand that, unlike next quarter's earnings, civil laws will effect their whole lives and the lives of their families. Things then suddenly get more contentious as people start to get concerned about whether or not the Shia will gain control and suddenly their children are ostracized. So it becomes a power struggle.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    We agree here that when state and religion is one and the same that its bad.
    You see that they can't merge, I see that they can exist in parallel like I stated above.
    Sure they can and do exist in parallel. But when it comes to civil authority, if the two aren't in agreement one has to supercede the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    no it doesn't.
    Islam is, naturally, tought in public schools because the official religion of the country is Islam. What do you expect?
    Should you not want that enroll your kids in St. Christopher's school, or the Indian School, where you will have none of that.
    If you are looking for a country that does not have an official recognised religion, maybe this country isn't the best choice for you. Thankfully, the world is full of alternatives. Concider living in another where thier system better fits with what you demand and expect.
    Isn't that a little bit of a biased view point? I mean, what about the indigenous Christians and Jews? For that matter, why should Sunni Islam get promoted over Shia since the latter are the majority? I'm not bashing Bahrain here, I'm just raising the question about difficulties that will naturally arise for the religions that aren't in power under a religion/state mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Thanks for your kind words. Anyhow, where does it say that a country should not have a state religion?
    You will drive your self into a loop here, because: you are also a fan of democracy right?
    What will you do when the majority of people say "Well, we want a sharia compliant set of laws"??
    Actually, no, I'm not a fan of democracy in that sense. I would never want to live in a country that was a pure democracy because then its just mob rule. I'm a fan of a Constitutional representative democracy where the will of the "mob" is tempered by a set of laws, elected representatives and an independent judiciary. And I'm not a fan of theocracy, not even a Christian theocracy. History has almost always shown that it corrupts the both the state and the church.

    Good debate though, redbelt.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Redbelt, I have to agree with Clulup on this issue (that is rare). If you bought an item for $300 and sold it for $400, you made money off the initial $300. It is a play on words nothing else. What was the intent of the law to not charge interest? I would say it was so that those who have, do not take advantage of those who have not. If you buy an item that anyone can buy for $300 and sell it to someone for $400 simply because they do not have the cash you are violating the principle. If you sold it for the original price and let the person pay you off over a period of 8 months, then you would uphold the principle.
    you want to make money. Buying and reselling at a higher price is what every retailer does. That is trade and that is fine.
    Once you accept the items, you have to pay X amount.
    You can pay cash now, cheque, in two months, or in installments over any given period of time. However, in all scenarios, you should still pay X amount of money.

    With a loan, you buy an item for X, if you pay it after a month it'll be X multiplied by a rate (X*1.6%, for example).
    If you pay within 2 months it will be as so:
    (X*1.6%) * 1.6%

    third month is
    ((X*1.6%) * 1.6%) * 1.6%

    and so on. The problem here that the price in an intrest transaction is variable, and can only increase. Despite that you did not purchase any more items.
    At one point of time, you would have fully paid X, however, the intrest that accumelated on X continues to accumelate more intrest.
    Its like free money to a bank, they are taking from you something they never gave you to begin with!

    there you go, the problem.

    For more resources

    http://islamonline.net/english/intro.../topic11.shtml
    http://islamonline.net/english/intro...rticle01.shtml
  7. #147  
    Redbelt, it's still a play on words IMO.

    For example, with interest...let's say you borrow $10,000 for 10 years with an interest rate of 6%. With equal monthly payments, you'll come up to $111.02/month. That's forbidden in Islam.

    However, WITHOUT interest, I say I want to loan you $10,000 with zero interest...however I'm going to charge you $3,322.40 for my trouble. So, divide $13,322.40 by 120 (1 payment per month for 10 years) and you get $111.02/month. This is allowed. Notice that it has the EXACT same result but is just described different...or in other words...it's a play on words

    Since inflation is around 3%, I would guess that people would charge around 6% interest (or whatever) and then do back calculations to determine how much monthly payments were charged so it ends up not being "interest". Then just rename this additional amount as profit instead of interest. The down part to this is it is NOT beneficial to pay off the loan early. Because you still have to pay the full interest amount, except you did it in "x" years instead of 10.

    The ONLY difference I see is that banks couldn't do "revolving" credit...which is like credit cards. Each transaction would be given the full interest amount as profit for each transaction. But then again, I could sell you a credit card and say that for every $100 you borrow, you have to pay back $130 and you have to do it in an "x" time frame. This again would give revolving credit but wouldn't give you any reason to pay off early. This would in effect give you a card that would be "at the best x% interest...and if paid off any sooner it would be >x% interest".
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Redbelt, it's still a play on words IMO.

    For example, with interest...let's say you borrow $10,000 for 10 years with an interest rate of 6%. With equal monthly payments, you'll come up to $111.02/month. That's forbidden in Islam.

    However, WITHOUT interest, I say I want to loan you $10,000 with zero interest...however I'm going to charge you $3,322.40 for my trouble. So, divide $13,322.40 by 120 (1 payment per month for 10 years) and you get $111.02/month. This is allowed. Notice that it has the EXACT same result but is just described different...or in other words...it's a play on words
    Correct in your example.
    HOWEVER
    in the case of credit cards, your example is invalid.
    ALSO
    all banks have very small print, usually saying that they can change the intrest rate depending on market variables. Which will directly affect how much you pay.
    this cannot happen if you bought something.
    ALSO
    lets say you borrow that amount. If you are late for one month, it will affect your total payment. This does not happen with a known amount like in a trade transaction.
    ALSO
    Intrest can accumelate on intrest, virtually going on forever unless you manage it carefully.
    That doesn't happen with trade.

    Your example is correct, but there are many other scenarios that will show difference.

    Bottom line, Islam is against money earning money with no effort or risk involved.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Correct in your example.
    HOWEVER
    in the case of credit cards, your example is invalid.
    ALSO
    all banks have very small print, usually saying that they can change the intrest rate depending on market variables. Which will directly affect how much you pay.
    this cannot happen if you bought something.
    ALSO
    lets say you borrow that amount. If you are late for one month, it will affect your total payment. This does not happen with a known amount like in a trade transaction.
    ALSO
    Intrest can accumelate on intrest, virtually going on forever unless you manage it carefully.
    That doesn't happen with trade.

    Your example is correct, but there are many other scenarios that will show difference.

    Bottom line, Islam is against money earning money with no effort or risk involved.

    First, banks loaning money for any reason has a risk...bankruptcy of the loanee. The better your credit score (i.e. the less risk you are) the better rate you get. I understand your argument and I do respect it, but I can imagine scenarios where a sharp financial guru in Islam could charge interest on interest.

    Scenario 1)
    I loan $10,000 to you with $13,000 repayment in 10 years...you miss one payment around year 5....as a penalty I now require you to pay the amount in a total of 7.5 years instead of the full 10 years. This in effect bumps up the interest rate although no interest was ever charged. You may have to get another loan to pay off this new shorter loan time frame.

    Scenario 2)
    I give you a line of credit that says every time you borrow $100, you have to repay $120 over 12 months (i.e. if you borrow $1000 today, you have 1 year to pay me $1200 which is $100/month)....Now this is a revolving line of credit, so for the 7th month payment of a $1000 loan (i.e. you've already paid $600), you find that you cannot make the minimum payment of $100...so you borrow another $100 to make that payment. At this point you now owe $620 (started at $600, but borrowed $100 to make the payment which ends up costing you another $20 because of the second loan).

    Now scenario two would be easier to describe in a simple excel spreadsheet but I think you get the picture. In both scenarios, you are not collecting "interest" but in both scenarios you could fall into the "interest" trap that other people can....again, I think it's a play on words, but you have to jump through more hoops to get to it.
  10. cardio's Avatar
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    #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Correct in your example.
    HOWEVER
    in the case of credit cards, your example is invalid.
    ALSO
    all banks have very small print, usually saying that they can change the intrest rate depending on market variables. Which will directly affect how much you pay.
    this cannot happen if you bought something.
    ALSO
    lets say you borrow that amount. If you are late for one month, it will affect your total payment. This does not happen with a known amount like in a trade transaction.
    ALSO
    Intrest can accumelate on intrest, virtually going on forever unless you manage it carefully.
    That doesn't happen with trade.

    Your example is correct, but there are many other scenarios that will show difference.

    Bottom line, Islam is against money earning money with no effort or risk involved.
    Does this also apply to savings accounts, or Certificates of Deposit (CDs). If I understand this right, a person can only save the actual amount of cash they put into a bank, they can not earn interest on their savings or investments?

    I earn more on my investments than I pay in interest on my debts, to include my mortgage.

    I still think your example is a play on words to get around the intention of the law (which I think is flawed to begin with). If you sell me an item that is worth $300 but charge me $400 you are earning money on money with no more risk than interest. ANd, you are overcharging me for a product which could be considered stealing.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  11. #151  
    Question: do none of these Shaira-based banks provide revolving lines of credit?
  12. #152  
    Interesting banking idea... But what happens if someone does not pay the monthly payment (can't say it's a loan)? Here the bank holds title to your car or house, and can repo it if you do not pay- since they still "own" it. Under your system, if I understand it correctly, I buy a TV for 300$, then sell it to you for $400 (you paying me in payments- but never owing me more than the $400). You would now "own" the TV, even though you still owe me some money? I can't reposses it?
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  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Well, I think we discussed the afghan guy to death (speaking of which.. Is he alive?)
    Here is the latest update. He is safe but now he is worried for his family still back there:

    Afghan Convert: 'They Would Have Killed Me'
    Thursday, March 30, 2006


    ROME — An Afghan who faced the death penalty in his homeland for converting from Islam to Christianity said Thursday he was certain he would have been killed had he stayed there, and he thanked Pope Benedict XVI for intervening on his behalf.

    "In Kabul, they would have killed me, I'm sure of it," said Abdul Rahman, who was spirited out of Afghanistan to a secret location in Italy. "If you are not a Muslim in an Islamic country like mine, they kill you. There are no doubts."

    He said his case was to serve as an example "to others who dared rebel."

    Rahman's comments, in a short interview to Italian journalists, came hours after Italy formally granted him asylum, citing religious persecution, the ministry said.

    ------------------

    He was released from prison Monday after a court dismissed charges of apostasy against him for of a lack of evidence and suspicions he might be mentally ill.

    Conversion is a crime under Afghanistan's Islamic law. Rahman, 41, was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible. He was brought to trial last week for converting 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan.

    Rahman also said he was worried for his family, still in Afghanistan.

    "On the streets, you still have Taliban and they kill those who are not Muslims," Rahman said. "I'm a father. My children are still there."

    ----------------------------

    Rahman's ordeal began as a custody battle for his two daughters, now 13 and 14. The girls lived with their grandparents, but Rahman sought custody when he returned to Afghanistan in 2002 after living in Germany for nine years. The matter was later taken to police, and during questioning, it emerged that Rahman was a Christian and was carrying a Bible. He was immediately arrested and charged.

    FULL STORY: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189721,00.html
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Bottom line, Islam is against money earning money with no effort or risk involved.
    No business in the world is earning money with no effort or risk involved, certainly not banks. Either they charge money for investing money, or they charge money for lending it to others, but then they risk losing it.

    If you want to find out whether your differentiation between interest and trade/no interest is just a play on words, you can look at the following simple situation:

    A Muslim dealer buys mobile phones for $200 a piece and wants to sell them in his shop for $300. Customer A walks in and pays $300, takes the phone and walks out.

    Then customer B walks in and says "I want to buy this phone for $300, but I don't have the money now. I will pay $50 for 6 months, so in six months you have $300. Deal?"

    According to you, since Muslims don't want nothing to do with interest, every real Muslim would agree with this, is that correct?

    Or, would they, like common sense dictates, say something like: "Ok, you can take the phone, you look sort of trustworthy, but who knows? I sell you the phone for $400, please pay $50 each months for 8 months."

    His risk is losing $300, his interest is $100, the premimum paid for lending money and taking the risk of losing it. You can call the interest something else, but it is still interest.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    No business in the world is earning money with no effort or risk involved, certainly not banks. Either they charge money for investing money, or they charge money for lending it to others, but then they risk losing it.

    If you want to find out whether your differentiation between interest and trade/no interest is just a play on words, you can look at the following simple situation:

    A Muslim dealer buys mobile phones for $200 a piece and wants to sell them in his shop for $300. Customer A walks in and pays $300, takes the phone and walks out.

    Then customer B walks in and says "I want to buy this phone for $300, but I don't have the money now. I will pay $50 for 6 months, so in six months you have $300. Deal?"

    According to you, since Muslims don't want nothing to do with interest, every real Muslim would agree with this, is that correct?

    Or, would they, like common sense dictates, say something like: "Ok, you can take the phone, you look sort of trustworthy, but who knows? I sell you the phone for $400, please pay $50 each months for 8 months."

    His risk is losing $300, his interest is $100, the premimum paid for lending money and taking the risk of losing it. You can call the interest something else, but it is still interest.
    I think this is a black/white example...good example. Mine was all theory, BUT obviously I don't have any first hand experience. If this answer is that they charge more than the $300 for any instance...then interest is charged should put this part of the discussion to rest.

    Unless in Islam, the whole religion is cash-n-carry
  16. #156  
    Redbelt, my condolences to those affected by the boat tragedy in Bahrain and their friends and relatives. Sorry to hear about the accident.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #157  
    Thanks clulup, this reminded Bahrain when the gulf air plane crashed here too. of course, that was a bigger tragedy. Almost all people had someone on the plane or knew of a victom or a mourning family. This is a smaller accident but still horrible.

    About the financing problem, I think I represented a horrid argument here based on my weak knowledge of finance. It may seem like a play on words to some, but intrest is not profit margin.

    I'll try to find some introduction to Islamic finance, as I'm sure that will help more than I ever will. I can explain basic Islamic insurance of course if your intrested.
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