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  1. #121  
    Redbelt.....thank you for taking the time for sharing your perspective that most of us are not usually privy to. It really does help. I for one want to say that I am not attacking during this thread, but simply trying to understand before I develop my reaction and opinion.

    Thanks again.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    So, what is a Christan missionary classified as that has praises for local and national leaders and operations of gov and recognizes Islam as a viable option religious option but only offers an alternative religious choice?

    In other words, no ill words or intent against Islam or gov. Only there for those who are interested to learn about possible alternatives.

    Are they an enemy of the state and may be tried and executed as such?
    No.
    I can buy bibles here, in multiple languages, there are places of worship in Bahrain for christians, jews and hindus. Some have thier own graveyard or schools.

    If you read my transelation of the study, there are only three scenarios where a muslim can be killed.
    That is besides war where Islam permits fighting thoes who fight you ONLY. Never prisoners or civilians.

    so, yeah, the answer to your question is No.

    As a matter of fact, the American Mission Hospital (which is set up by missionarries) have been here with its own church for over 100 years. They have however failed to convert a single muslim. They convert mostly hindus and offer services and church practices to existing christians.

    A non-profit organisation called "Discover Islam" however, manages to convert on average 10 people per week. Jermain Jackson (Michael's brother) turned muslim here with thier help. That is probably why michael is living here, suppose he told him about Bahrain..

    But I digress.. I apologize. Please return to main topic.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I for one want to say that I am not attacking during this thread, but simply trying to understand before I develop my reaction and opinion.
    Thank you for list...erm.. reading.

    I know your discussing and never felt upset about it once. I can say that most if not all people here are very very civil and do argue in a productive manner.

    Cheers
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Hi clulup,
    well, if you wanna go to women, that is a whole new subject. If you wanna discuss it I would suggest you start a new thread so this wouldn't get confusing. I would strongly suggest reading here: http://www.islamtomorrow.com/women

    as for former muslims and what should be done, I did a quick search and found your exact answer in Islamonline.net.
    The followinng is a shortened transelated version of what was there: ...
    Thanks for the quotes and the translation.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Thanks for the quotes and the translation.
    You are most welcome!
  6. #126  
    Hi redbelt,

    I'd like to address some of your points:

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    I for one am not a supporter for seperation of Mosque and state. So long as the state does not BECOME the mosque.
    I think history shows, however, that when the state and the religion mix its difficult, if not impossible, to guard the religion from state influences.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    My religion offers basic rules for banking, conduct, and other laws. It also justifies such rules by explaining why. Therefore, I do beleive that it should be the base of laws in a muslim state. Other laws that were not addresses can be set up freely by the state. eg: Islam does tell us that an intrest bearing loan is forbidden because you cannot earn money by lending money. Islamic banks would for example buy a house and resell it to you with a profit and will take installments from you. Islam however said nothing about.. um.. traffic laws, so the traffic dept. is free to do what they see fit.
    You bring up banking as an example, but Bahrain is, in fact, a major center of banking--loans and all. So, my issue is that if Bahraini laws were based entirely on Islamic law then it could not be the center of international banking that it has become.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    I understand where most of you come from when talking about church and state, seeing as how the church WAS the state and we all know how this ended up. Thats why I do not support Binladen, Nor Iran, nor to a certain degree, KSA.
    That seems to contradict what you said earlier about not being a supporter of seperation between Mosque and state.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    What I am saying is, Islam does offer a way of life (a good life mind) to people. Politicians here should use it as the basis for laws, but I do not support clerics setting up laws or handeling state because they are clerics not politicians. That scenario only would lead to Middle ages Europe or Iran.
    I don't know how you can keep that from happening if you base civil law on Islamic law. Someone needs to interpret the Islamic law and that is going to be the clerics.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Example: Malayasia is an exempleory muslim state. Anyone been there? It is very advances, Economy is booming, Muslims and other religions and multiple races live in harmony. That is exactly what should happen.
    Malaysia may not be a good example to support your point since Malaysia is not an Islamic state. It's legal structure is based on English common law.

    http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/my.html
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    If you read my transelation of the study, there are only three scenarios where a muslim can be killed.
    That is besides war where Islam permits fighting thoes who fight you ONLY. Never prisoners or civilians. so, yeah, the answer to your question is No.
    But we can clearly see that there are large groups of Muslims that disagree with your interpretation. Of course I would wish that more of those Muslims shared your interpretation in this matter but that's not reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    As a matter of fact, the American Mission Hospital (which is set up by missionarries) have been here with its own church for over 100 years. They have however failed to convert a single muslim. They convert mostly hindus and offer services and church practices to existing christians.

    A non-profit organisation called "Discover Islam" however, manages to convert on average 10 people per week. Jermain Jackson (Michael's brother) turned muslim here with thier help. That is probably why michael is living here, suppose he told him about Bahrain..
    Okay, come on redbelt! We've seen you be a voice of reason in the past but this comparison is just silly. You cannot compare the proselytizing efficiency of an international organization like Discover Islam that is set up primarily to proselytize and a local Christian hospital operating in a country that officially discourages non-Mulsim proselytizing, that probably has strict policies itself against proselytizing (like most hospitals) and that has most likley very weak ties with the church of its founding. Even if it has a church attached, it is probably very small and is, as I said, discouraged by the government from prosyletizing--especially Muslims, I'm sure.

    The Government discourages proselytizing by non-Muslims and prohibits anti-Islamic writings. However, Bibles and other Christian publications are displayed and sold openly in local bookstores that also sell Islamic and other religious literature. Some small groups worship in their homes. Notable dignitaries from virtually every religion and denomination visit the country and frequently meet with the Government and civic leaders. Religious tracts of all branches of Islam, cassettes of sermons delivered by Muslim preachers from other countries, and publications of other religions readily are available.
    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8246.htm
    Last edited by hoovs; 03/28/2006 at 09:53 AM.
  8. #128  
    Latest development:

    Afghan Christian Convert Drops Out of Sight After Release
    Tuesday, March 28, 2006

    KABUL, Afghanistan — An Afghan man who had faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity quickly vanished Tuesday after he was released from prison, apparently out of fear for his life with Muslim clerics still demanding his death.

    ------------------

    Rahman, 41, was released from the high-security Policharki prison on the outskirts of Kabul late Monday, Afghan Justice Minister Mohammed Sarwar Danish told The Associated Press.

    "We released him last night because the prosecutors told us to," he said. "His family was there when he was freed, but I don't know where he was taken."

    ------------------

    On Monday, hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting "Death to Christians!" marched through the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e-Sharif to protest the court decision Sunday to dismiss the case. Several Muslim clerics threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if he is freed, saying that he is clearly guilty of apostasy and deserves to die.

    "Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it," said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed, from the nearby northern city of Kunduz. "The Christian foreigners occupying Afghanistan are attacking our religion."

    Rahman was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible during a custody dispute over his two daughters. He was put on trial last week for converting 16 years ago while he was a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He faced the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws.

    -------------------

    The international outrage over Rahman's case put Karzai in a difficult position because he also risked offending religious sensibilities in Afghanistan, where senior Muslim clerics have been united in calling for Rahman to be executed.

    FULL STORY: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189312,00.html
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I think history shows, however, that when the state and the religion mix its difficult, if not impossible, to guard the religion from state influences.
    I agree that it is difficult and not impossible. It needs a basic understanding of what religion and polotics are by thoes who practice it. Such awarness must also be shared by the people. And in a proper democracy, I do not see this as a problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    You bring up banking as an example, but Bahrain is, in fact, a major center of banking--loans and all. So, my issue is that if Bahraini laws were based entirely on Islamic law then it could not be the center of international banking that it has become.
    AHA! We shift from what Islam is to practises of people. This is the blurry line that you spoke of above. Anyhow:
    Bahrain, while the official religion is Islam, has its laws based on the Egyptian / French Systems (As far as I know). The laws were set long before Bahrain was indipendadnt, and even after it was, laws were highly influenced by the "protectorate" government.
    Bahrain is a Financial gulf centre for Investments, Banking and Insurance. However, as more power is being given to people, they are slowly working on changing that. For example, I work in SOLIDARITY (www.solidarity.cc) its a Takaful based company. Takaful (an Arabic word meaning SOLIDARITY) as an Islam approved method of doing insurance. It is the largest Takaful company in the world with $ 300 Mil. USD paid up capital and $ 500 Mil. USD Authorised. It is in its third year and we are expanding to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Lebanon & Malaysia. I think there are plans to head to Europe thereafter.
    Conventional Banking have caused alot of problems in my opinion here, and we see Islamic approved financial institutions as replacment springing up everyday.

    Still, starting with or continuing with conventional banking is an act of people, it is not what Islam preachs. We agreed earlier that the actions of people is not a direct gauge of a system's validity.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    That seems to contradict what you said earlier about not being a supporter of seperation between Mosque and state.
    I do not see how it does. Islam merly offers corner stones for you to build upon any laws you wish which better suits your needs. All guidence in it have been discussed to death of thier merit and I do beleive that it makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I don't know how you can keep that from happening if you base civil law on Islamic law. Someone needs to interpret the Islamic law and that is going to be the clerics.
    I can see your point. When a religious leader however is also a political one, I think that in almost all cases they will preach or say things to serve thier purposes. Thats a dangerous thing, as alot of people may disregard thier own thought to be "beleivers", but if a politician says that... lets see... If W says you gotta invade Uganda because it has the bases to manufacture WMDs, you guys will not siply flock behind him would you? because going against your state's opinions would not jeoperdize your identity as an American. But going against the "WILL OF GOD"? it will go directly against who you are as a believer.
    .. Am I making sense?


    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Malaysia may not be a good example to support your point since Malaysia is not an Islamic state. It's legal structure is based on English common law.
    Legal structure can be anything (as I addressed earlier). Sharia is not a whole law system. It offers corner stones, like.. First degree murder is penelised by death. It will not tell you how ministaries are run, whats the education system is like or whats are your trade laws with other countries. It is up to you to fill that up.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    But we can clearly see that there are large groups of Muslims that disagree with your interpretation. Of course I would wish that more of those Muslims shared your interpretation in this matter but that's not reality.
    Islam is not a verse from the quran or a single action in history, it is all of the Quran and the Sunnah.
    Some people read something like "you have to fight", but not complete the sentance to form "thoes who attack you" for example.
    The transelated study I posted showed parts in history where the prophet let people convert away from Islam and in other instances would fight them. The reasons are discussed there for each incident. Both you & I know its stupid to base opinions without looking at the whole picture. The afghani guys who wants to kill the new christian probably saw one example and they thought "well, thats good for me, lets go".


    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Okay, come on redbelt! We've seen you be a voice of reason in the past but this comparison is just silly. You cannot compare the proselytizing efficiency of an international organization like Discover Islam that is set up primarily to proselytize and a local Christian hospital operating in a country that officially discourages non-Mulsim proselytizing, that probably has strict policies itself against proselytizing (like most hospitals) and that has most likley very weak ties with the church of its founding. Even if it has a church attached, it is probably very small and is, as I said, discouraged by the government from prosyletizing--especially Muslims, I'm sure.
    Yes, this comparision is unfair, and that was not my intention to compare anyway. Read on:
    Well the church it self is quite big. Its a whole building that I think is around three stories tall. It is also not the only church here mind. The Missionary hospital was set up before the indipendance and was freely praching christianity to everyone.
    Now, while it doesn't do that as much, they do still preach within the bounds of the hospital, the hospital has Two branches, and is one of the main hospitals in Bahrain and serves thousends of Bahraini's daily for moderate fees. They can supply you with bibles and pamphlets and they do give them to every patient.

    So, as I am not comparing head to head, its unfair now. I am trying to point how many muslims did it manage to convert. they did get a good thirty to fourty years of preaching freely and they continue to do so with the thousends of citizens they serve everyday. And they do convert people, but not a single muslim. and that is my point. I'm not comparing the efficiency or resources, I'm just saying that more and more people from all around the world in all languages think that Islam makes sense. even in the US, despite the bad rep. Binladen and his minions gave us.
    On the otherside, few muslims convert away, so few, its rare.

    Hmm... Maybe I should start a thread about some of the topics that make a billion human beings believe the Quran is from God. I'd love to hear your comments.
    Last edited by redbelt; 03/29/2006 at 02:24 AM.
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Islam is not a verse from the quran or a single action in history, it is all of the Quran and the Sunnah...
    I can see your point. But you seem to be implying that the people who interpret Islam in such a way are a very small minority. I don't think this is the case otherwise one would see mass demonstrations against the killing of an "apostate" rather than against the writing of a comic strip. After all, don't you agree that twisting the words of the Prophet in order to kill innocent people does more to defame the name of the Prophet than a person who writes ill words of him?
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    So, as I am not comparing head to head, its unfair now. I am trying to point how many muslims did it manage to convert. they did get a good thirty to fourty years of preaching freely and they continue to do so with the thousends of citizens they serve everyday. And they do convert people, but not a single muslim. and that is my point. I'm not comparing the efficiency or resources, I'm just saying that more and more people from all around the world in all languages think that Islam makes sense. even in the US, despite the bad rep. Binladen and his minions gave us.
    On the otherside, few muslims convert away, so few, its rare.
    Then one of us is believing untrue propaganda; maybe both of us to an extent. In my estimation, the reason you're not hearing more about Muslim converts to Christianity is partly because proselytizing is forbidden in most predominantly Muslim countries. Also, the reason you're not hearing more about these converts could be this:

    15,000 Malaysians [converts] who want to be able to live openly as Christians
    Many converts are branded as “apostates” and they are forced to practice their new faith in hiding because they fear Sharia violence. The Constitution states that “a Malay citizen is a person who professes Islam”.
    Persecutions of Muslim converts to Christianity continue
    Cairo (AsiaNews) – Disturbing signs of limited religious freedom among Christian minority communities are increasing in the country. Of the 22 converts from Islam to Christianity arrested last October, then released on bail (as reported by AsiaNews), two were placed under arrest again on the night of last Dec. 16.
    Law, family, and society discourage conversion in Muslim nations
    By Jasper Mortimer, Associated Press | March 28, 2006
    CAIRO -- In the Middle East, Jordan is known as a tolerant country, but when a Muslim man converted to Christianity two years ago, a court convicted him of apostasy, took away his right to work, and annulled his marriage.
    But Afghanistan isn't the only US-allied government where Muslim converts to Christianity are threatened with execution. Saudi Arabia neither permits conversion from Islam nor allows other religions in the kingdom. There are no churches and missionaries are barred. Regular criticism in US State Department reports on religious freedom have had no effect on Saudi policy.
    In May, an Egyptian man who converted to Christianity was arrested on suspicion of ''contempt for religion," a charge that entails a prison sentence of up to five years, said Hossam Bahgat, director of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. The man, who has not been identified, remains in custody without charge, Bahgat said.

    Authorities in Egypt and most other Arab countries will not recognize conversion from Islam in official documents, such as identity papers, which usually state a person's faith.

    Even if a convert is not prosecuted, ''the issue is the pressure they are going to face from their families, the religious establishment, their friends, and associates," said Fadi al-Qadi, a Middle East spokesman for York-based Human Rights Watch. ''It would be overwhelming. They would be really isolated."
    ''Turkey is a democratic country and, according to law, you can choose whatever you want," said Soner Tufan, a convert from Islam, who runs a Christian radio station, Radio Shema, in the capital, Ankara.

    But, he said, ''if someone converts, they can suffer some problems from their friends, relatives, and neighbors" -- or face difficulties getting a job in the civil service.
    Christian Freedom International Urges Bangladesh to Stop the Persecution of Muslim Converts to Christianity
    DHAKA, Bangladesh, May 20 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Christian Freedom International President Jim Jacobson said today, "Serious attacks on converts to Christianity by Islamic extremists are increasing. The Bangladesh government is doing nothing to stop the persecution of these Christians."
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...5263_1,00.html
    INDONESIA
    Three schoolgirls killed in October last year. Their heads reportedly found in plastic bags with a note threatening murder of 100 more Christian teenagers

    INDIA
    Two pastors murdered in Hyderabad in May last year

    EDIT: References to North Korea irrelevant and removed

    PAKISTAN
    Any disparagement of the Prophet Muhammad is punishable by death

    ERITREA
    1,700 evangelical Christians imprisoned indefinitely for being part of what are deemed illegal churches

    SOMALIA
    Somali Christians seen as enemies of the State. Since end of the dictatorship in 1991 many have been attacked and killed
    And this is just from independent news sources. So it appears that even the limited exposure to Christianity that people in Muslim countries do get is further weakened by the fact that people who listen risk the loss of life or livelihood if they convert. I think its remarkable that, despite the dangers, there are still tens of thousands, if not more, Christian converts in Muslim countries.
    Last edited by hoovs; 03/29/2006 at 11:13 PM.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    I agree that it is difficult and not impossible. It needs a basic understanding of what religion and polotics are by thoes who practice it. Such awarness must also be shared by the people. And in a proper democracy, I do not see this as a problem.
    Is there an example of a proper democracy integrated with Sharia law?

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Conventional Banking have caused alot of problems in my opinion here, and we see Islamic approved financial institutions as replacment springing up everyday.
    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    I do not see how it does. Islam merly offers corner stones for you to build upon any laws you wish which better suits your needs. All guidence in it have been discussed to death of thier merit and I do beleive that it makes sense.
    But that's where it gets tricky, right? I mean, the religious laws can be interpreted by clerics to be as liberal or repressive as those clerics see fit. If they make the laws then I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that the laws will be written to keep those clerics in power and in the money.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    I can see your point. When a religious leader however is also a political one, I think that in almost all cases they will preach or say things to serve thier purposes. Thats a dangerous thing, as alot of people may disregard thier own thought to be "beleivers", but if a politician says that... lets see... If W says you gotta invade Uganda because it has the bases to manufacture WMDs, you guys will not siply flock behind him would you? because going against your state's opinions would not jeoperdize your identity as an American. But going against the "WILL OF GOD"? it will go directly against who you are as a believer.
    .. Am I making sense?
    Yes, you are. And this is the point I was making before. In a representative democracy people have the right of dissent. Because one's dissent is against the will of the leaders. In a theocracy, or any hybrid of theocracy/democracy, dissent is frowned upon because one's dissent is against the will of God. Basically what you just said. So, then if we agree on that we can see how intertwining a certain religion into state affairs can really greatly hampers public expression of dissent. I think this is a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Legal structure can be anything (as I addressed earlier). Sharia is not a whole law system. It offers corner stones, like.. First degree murder is penelised by death. It will not tell you how ministaries are run, whats the education system is like or whats are your trade laws with other countries. It is up to you to fill that up.
    Actually, it does tell what the education system is like--Islam is to be taught in the public schools. And I'm sure the same applies to other areas of gevernment as well.

    I have to say, Bahrain has been a very positive force in the Middle East with the opening of its political system and its economy. You've done much to be applauded. But even the National Action Charter of Bahrain acknowledges "Islamic Shari'a law is the principle source of legislatiion." As such, and as discussed already, it is at the discretion of the interpretation of the Shura council and related clerics.
  13.    #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Hmm... Maybe I should start a thread about some of the topics that make a billion human beings believe the Quran is from God.
    That would be a good topic
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I can see your point. But you seem to be implying that the people who interpret Islam in such a way are a very small minority. I don't think this is the case otherwise one would see mass demonstrations against the killing of an "apostate" rather than against the writing of a comic strip. After all, don't you agree that twisting the words of the Prophet in order to kill innocent people does more to defame the name of the Prophet than a person who writes ill words of him?
    Sorry hoovs, I have not implied any quantity for such people. It could be any number really.
    And yes, twisting words is insaulting and I plus millions other are against it and not buying it. It was the subject of a seminar or a campaign of some sort... Can't recall.. but I heard this before here.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    the reason you're not hearing more about Muslim converts to Christianity is partly because proselytizing is forbidden in most predominantly Muslim countries.
    No, I was speaking primerly about Bahrainis and Gulf Nationals mainly. I haven't heard of an incident when a muslim converts from his religion. I can't say the same for people who are not from this region but I do not expect them to be muslim except in formal papers.

    When I studied in Glasgow, we had a turkish guy with us in the dorm. This guy did not pray (we pray at least 5 times a day) used to drink (we can't consume alcohol) and brought a nice blond chick almost everynight to his dorm (we can't have sex outside of wedlock). When I asked him about it, I was thinking that he knew its wrong but he's addicted or weak or whatever reason people justify things with. But he said that doesn't go against Islam and is "OK" to do! You can't simply rewrite a religion just as you see fit! He is really a muslim on formal paper only. Another guy who was from.. I think khazekhestan, or a near by country, he said he wasn't muslim. BUT, his parent told him that his religion is sunni. I was like "you *****, sunni's ARE muslims". of course he had absolutly no idea or clue of what islam is despite being "told" that he was. I mean you guys know more nowxthan he did then.
    Muslims by name are easily converted to any religous belief. because they were not muslim. As I said before, Islam is the willing acceptance that there is only one god and mohammed is his prophet. so if one didn't accept, believe or practice that in the first place, I really don't call him a muslim to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I think its remarkable that, despite the dangers, there are still tens of thousands, if not more, Christian converts in Muslim countries.
    In Bahrain there are non I heard of. Can you verify these numbers? and were they former muslims or only new christians? because we have alot of new christians here too.
  15. #135  
    Not REALLY serious...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Is there an example of a proper democracy integrated with Sharia law?
    Now? I don't think so. But this has little to with it. Politics here are a mess, hold on, world wide is messed up anyway.
    However, In early days of Islam it did pretty well, it even provided alot of services and luxuries that no other country had. Like, they had hospitals in the cleanest parts of town, with free treatments. AND, if you needed to be hospetlized, the government would actually pay you so you don't have to work and remain in bed (of course we have paid sick leaves now). The Islamic empire spread wide and offered the world many new scinces like Alchemy (Arabic: Alkimea) Algebra (A'jabr) + others.
    So yes, it can be and was successfull.
    I do believe that a country that adapts this system will be very stable. It offers human rights, excellant finance basics and family social laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    How so?
    Well, I am not so financially privy, but it is said that god does not bless "Riba" (Which is intrest charged on loaning money) and blesses trade (normal buying and selling).
    Lets say you wanna buy a.. PS3 (it comes out in Nov. BTW! Woohoo!) and you got no cash.
    Option one you use your credit card.
    Option two, I buy it and sell it to you at a profit.

    Scenario 1 is basically an intrest bearing loan. if it costs $300, and pay the minimum each month, how much did you really pay for the PS3? It is very possible that you would have paid the $300 and will still continue to pay beacuse the remaining intrest will collect more intrest. It will lit. grow by itself! despite the fact that you aren't getting any more services.
    In scenario 2, I buy it for $300, and sell it to you for $400. over eight months at $50 a month. thats it, done, end of story.

    In a very small island like Bahrain, you can see effects way more clearly. Banks here have announced that the bulk of money in Bahrain is withheld in banks. It is not in the hands of the public. Buying power is at an all time low. Prices change several percentages up annually and sometime bi-annually. Money continues to move away from public into banks. This caused a recession in retail markets. People cannot move away from thier parents homes anymore, for example, even after marriage. with double income.
    The Bahraini citizen's debt is so huge, it is joked that to be Bahraini you have to have a debt first.
    What we have seen now is the disapperance of middle class. (We have rich & poor now) thats a dangerous situation that leads (and led already) to more crimes, riots and discontent.
    But thats off the top of me head. Financial transactions in Islam looks like a whole new subject too! also, I wouldn't be a decent arguer here

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    But that's where it gets tricky, right? I mean, the religious laws can be interpreted by clerics to be as liberal or repressive as those clerics see fit. If they make the laws then I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that the laws will be written to keep those clerics in power and in the money.
    no it shouldn't.
    the basics are known and agreed upon. intrest not allowed, fine. Murdrers 1st degree to be executed. OK. thats it. end of story. No more interpetation is necessarry.
    In my company, an Islamic Insurance based one, we have a Sharia board. Who monitor our product and make sure they comply. They did not however, suggest a dress code to employees, email sermons or whatever. Its a normal everyday company that the Sharia board offers guidance on its products ONLY and not anything else.
    Exchange my company with state, Sharia board with clerics. There you go, no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Yes, you are. And this is the point I was making before. In a representative democracy people have the right of dissent. Because one's dissent is against the will of the leaders. In a theocracy, or any hybrid of theocracy/democracy, dissent is frowned upon because one's dissent is against the will of God. Basically what you just said. So, then if we agree on that we can see how intertwining a certain religion into state affairs can really greatly hampers public expression of dissent. I think this is a bad thing.
    We agree here that when state and religion is one and the same that its bad.
    You see that they can't merge, I see that they can exist in parallel like I stated above.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Actually, it does tell what the education system is like--Islam is to be taught in the public schools. And I'm sure the same applies to other areas of gevernment as well.
    no it doesn't.
    Islam is, naturally, tought in public schools because the official religion of the country is Islam. What do you expect?
    Should you not want that enroll your kids in St. Christopher's school, or the Indian School, where you will have none of that.
    If you are looking for a country that does not have an official recognised religion, maybe this country isn't the best choice for you. Thankfully, the world is full of alternatives. Concider living in another where thier system better fits with what you demand and expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    But even the National Action Charter of Bahrain acknowledges "Islamic Shari'a law is the principle source of legislatiion." As such, and as discussed already, it is at the discretion of the interpretation of the Shura council and related clerics.
    Thanks for your kind words. Anyhow, where does it say that a country should not have a state religion?
    You will drive your self into a loop here, because: you are also a fan of democracy right?
    What will you do when the majority of people say "Well, we want a sharia compliant set of laws"??
    And actually this is going on now, some new laws regarding families are being suggested, and most people are against some of them because its against Sharia teachings and are asking for some adjustments. There you go.
    If you, or USA, or anybody disagrees with what I stated (religion & state parallel thing), it does not mean that it is wrong or that your model is wrong. My religion does tell me that difference of opinion is mercy. Run your country as you wish, and we will run our country as we wish.
    IF, the way we run it hurts others then yes, you can say something about it, you can't condemn it before it does anything wrong or it'll be "Minority Report" all over again!
    Last edited by redbelt; 03/30/2006 at 02:49 AM.
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    For example, I work in SOLIDARITY (www.solidarity.cc) its a Takaful based company. Takaful (an Arabic word meaning SOLIDARITY) as an Islam approved method of doing insurance. It is the largest Takaful company in the world with $ 300 Mil. USD paid up capital and $ 500 Mil. USD Authorised.
    With all due respect, but a capitalization of US$500 million is tiny. E.g. Zurich Financial Services, an insurance company operating largely in Switzerland (a SMALL country ), has a market capitalization of US$34000 million.

    If Solidarity really is the largest Takaful based company, this means that this type of company plays no role on an international level.
    Well, I am not so financially privy, but it is said that god does not bless "Riba" (Which is intrest charged on loaning money) and blesses trade (normal buying and selling).
    Lets say you wanna buy a.. PS3 (it comes out in Nov. BTW! Woohoo!) and you got no cash.
    Option one you use your credit card.
    Option two, I buy it and sell it to you at a profit.

    Scenario 1 is basically an intrest bearing loan. if it costs $300, and pay the minimum each month, how much did you really pay for the PS3? It is very possible that you would have paid the $300 and will still continue to pay beacuse the remaining intrest will collect more intrest. It will lit. grow by itself! despite the fact that you aren't getting any more services.
    In scenario 2, I buy it for $300, and sell it to you for $400. over eight months at $50 a month. thats it, done, end of story.
    In your example, you got (roughly) 30% interest within 8 month ($100 plus for $300 investment). The interest is the money you get for letting somebody use your money for a given period of time. You just call it differenty in your expample, but it is still the same from a practical point of view.
    Last edited by clulup; 03/30/2006 at 04:00 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Anyhow, where does it say that a country should not have a state religion?
    Well, you say so, in a way:
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    We agree here that when state and religion is one and the same that its bad.
    State religion is very close to state and religion being the same.
    What will you do when the majority of people say "Well, we want a sharia compliant set of laws"??
    Not invest in such countries, because Sharia law and state religion is - in the view of Non-Muslims - too strong a limitation for personal, economic and democratic freedom?

    But as you said, you are free to make your choices, as long as you do not interfere with the choices of others.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    No, I was speaking primerly about Bahrainis and Gulf Nationals mainly. I haven't heard of an incident when a muslim converts from his religion. I can't say the same for people who are not from this region but I do not expect them to be muslim except in formal papers...
    Well, certainly every religion deals with those types of people. I'm talking about people who are really practicing Christian converts.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    In Bahrain there are non I heard of. Can you verify these numbers? and were they former muslims or only new christians? because we have alot of new christians here too.
    Bahrain

    "Converts from Islam to other religions are not well tolerated by society, which leads some small groups to worship in their homes."

    That implies that there are at least some but since they can't legally change their papers and they are frowned upon by society, I can't imagine how they would be easily counted by a census.

    As far as other countries go, the 15,000 number from Malaysia was a direct quote from the news article. I have lots of other data but I want to steer clear of using Christian sources since I'm sure people will tend to think of them as biased.
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In your example, you got (roughly) 30% interest within 8 month ($100 plus for $300 investment). The interest is the money you get for letting somebody use your money for a given period of time. You just call it differenty in your expample, but it is still the same from a practical point of view.
    Au contrair..
    this may seem like it, but even if I spread this to 16 months at $25 each, the amount you pay is still the same.
    Where as in an intrest bearing loan, paying it in 8 months or 16 is different.

    In buying and selling, you pay for something or you charge money for something.

    With intrest, money just earns money. That myfriend, I do not agree with.
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