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  1. cardio's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Of course we are all in awe about the effectiveness of the US when it comes to tracking down those WMD in Iraq, putting an end to Saddam's influence on Islamistic terrorism, and establishing democracy in Iraq.
    I hear there is a plan in place to get the Swiss to help look for WMD, they are telling them that there is trace amounts of gold (about the amount used in filling a tooth) in the WMD.

    Oh yeah, I thought I heard something about a parliment being sworn in, or maybe something about millions of people risking their lives to get the chance to vote for their gov't leaders.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The process of the UN did not fail in your example. Not judging whther the decision was right or wrong. The UN is an attempt to democratize the Worlds nations. So your statement that the UN failed is not logical.
    I think this describes a key source of disagreement perfectly. Some people want to make the right decision, regardless of process. Others want to follow the right process, regardless of right vs. wrong. I mean no offense, but personally, I can't understand at all how you can declare the decision a success while ignoring the question of whether it was right or wrong.

    IMO, if a "good" process reaches the wrong decision, then the process failed, and the assumptions behind believing that the process was good are flawed. It sounds wonderful to apply the principles of democracy to the forum of nations, until you realize that you're giving equal voice to murderous tyrannies like North Korea and peaceful democracies like France. This spirit of consensus and compromise works fine for some things, but it often fails miserably when it involves major conflict.

    The UN serves a purpose, and we need to continue supporting it. But I don't believe for one moment that it's going to take a lead role in trying to "democratize the world's nations." That requires not being afraid of conflict. By its nature, the UN is paralyzed when there's conflict.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Of course we are all in awe about the effectiveness of the US when it comes to tracking down those WMD in Iraq, putting an end to Saddam's influence on Islamistic terrorism, and establishing democracy in Iraq.
    A) Everyone thought they had WMD and nobody's proved that they didn't.

    B) Saddam's influence on Palestinian suicide bombers has indeed ended.

    C) Democracy in Iraq is taking hold but it doesn't happen over night. Do you know eleven years elapsed between the Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies and the first ratification of the Constitution--four years after the end of the war. And it took three years subsequent to that for all of the colonies to ratify it. During and shortly afte which we had the Shay's Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion, some would include the Fries' Rebellion and so on. Why do we expect immediate gratification in Iraq?
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    And on another note, how many here think these changes would have happened if we hadn 't sent the EVIL John Bolton to the UN?
    Yeah, what an achievement for John Bolton. Joining him in his "no" vote were Israel, Marshall Islands and Palau. Belarus, Iran and Venezuela abstained.

    Great company you've got.
    You missed his point completely. Or perhaps you were dodging it.

    He implied that Bolton was at least partially responsible for the UN's finally taking action to replace the Human Rights Commission, though it ultimately fell short of his goals. I personally don't know. Do you have a response to his point? Do you know whether John Bolton deserves some credit for these changes taking place?
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I was just going to post very close to the same thing.....great minds think alike!
    I just came across this thread today, and when I saw the comment about the US not waiting for the "second" (!!!) UN resolution, I wanted to respond, but I saw you answered it quite well.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    The righteous often stand alone.
    So Belarus, Iran, Venezuela, Israel, Marshall Islands, Palau and the US are the righteous ones?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    He implied that Bolton was at least partially responsible for the UN's finally taking action to replace the Human Rights Commission, though it ultimately fell short of his goals. I personally don't know. Do you have a response to his point? Do you know whether John Bolton deserves some credit for these changes taking place?
    Yes, I do know: he doesn't. That the UN needs reform is not his invention at all. That the former Human Rights Commission was in dire need for reform was also clear. It was Kofi Annan who took the initiative on this last year, not John Bolton. Bolton's role was not a constructive one, but destructive. If he had succeeded, the reform would have been blocked, the bad old situation would have remained.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I know you need to slam the US in every post, but please try to stay on topic.
    I don't slam the US, if anything, I slam the current President and his administration. I know the majority of the US people agree with me that he is not up to the challenge, but it is sad that the damage is already done now.

    If somebody claims the UN is not effictive, it is on topic to show how effective the ones complaining are.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So Belarus, Iran, Venezuela, Israel, Marshall Islands, Palau and the US are the righteous ones?
    Is it implausible that all of these countries could be right in this specific case?
  10. cardio's Avatar
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    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't slam the US, if anything, I slam the current President and his administration. I know the majority of the US people agree with me that he is not up to the challenge, but it is sad that the damage is already done now.

    If somebody claims the UN is not effictive, it is on topic to show how effective the ones complaining are.
    OK, let's start by you (he who complains most) show how effective you/EU have been in stablizing the world. Please elaborate on the civil wars, dictators, terrorist, etc that you have been instrumental in resolving. Feel free to add all of the UN success (without the US lead) in your success also.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    It makes more of a difference than sitting arounf poo-pooing the UN every waking moment.
    But not if this new Commssion is going to do nothing but sit around and poo-poo themselves. I don't care what they do with old Commisions. Put a little pretty ribbon on it for all I care, if it'll be more of the same, what difference does it make?
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  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Yes, I do know: he doesn't. That the UN needs reform is not his invention at all. That the former Human Rights Commission was in dire need for reform was also clear. It was Kofi Annan who took the initiative on this last year, not John Bolton. Bolton's role was not a constructive one, but destructive. If he had succeeded, the reform would have been blocked, the bad old situation would have remained.
    Your comments seem motivated more by spite towards the administration than on a desire to fairly assess what happened. Who pressured Kofi into making changes? He certainly didn't arrive at the conclusion to reform the UN on his own. Who pushed him? Who deserves credit for making the Human Rights Commission a priority? Who deserves credit for making UN reform a priority? Definitely not Kofi.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Of course we are all in awe about the effectiveness of the US when it comes to tracking down those WMD in Iraq, putting an end to Saddam's influence on Islamistic terrorism, and establishing democracy in Iraq.
    Clulup....you ignore all the points I posted and twisted a quote into a totally unrelated off topic opportunity to....yet again....attack the US. Sad, but pretty typical.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    OK, let's start by you (he who complains most) show how effective you/EU have been in stablizing the world. Please elaborate on the civil wars, dictators, terrorist, etc that you have been instrumental in resolving. Feel free to add all of the UN success (without the US lead) in your success also.
    Successful UN operations are/were e.g. Kosovo/former Yugaslavia (with also some spectacular failures in the earlier stages, namely Srebrenica), Kuwait, Haiti, East Timor, and numerous other missions one hears little about because they go smoothly.

    Of course in some of those operations the US have had the military lead (namely Kuwait, or also in the early stages in former Yugoslavia). The US have the most powerful army by far, but the best army is of little use when the commander in chief uses it for the wrong missions.

    However, I agree with you that European countries should increase their military power and their ability to act fast outside of their territories.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    However, I agree with you that European countries should increase their military power and their ability to act fast outside of their territories.
    I totally agree with this!
  16. cardio's Avatar
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    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Successful UN operations are/were e.g. Kosovo/former Yugaslavia (with also some spectacular failures in the earlier stages, namely Srebrenica), Kuwait, Haiti, East Timor, and numerous other missions one hears little about because they go smoothly.

    Of course in some of those operations the US have had the military lead (namely Kuwait, or also in the early stages in former Yugoslavia). The US have the most powerful army by far, but the best army is of little use when the commander in chief uses it for the wrong missions.

    However, I agree with you that European countries should increase their military power and their ability to act fast outside of their territories.
    I am impressed that you have actually admitted that the US has taken the lead in some of the UN success stories (I would say most). I also agree that the EU needs to step up to the plate and assist the world, after all we have definately helped most of the EU countries in their time of need, now it is time for them to help others.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    However, I agree with you that European countries should increase their military power and their ability to act fast outside of their territories.
    I'd say not just power and ability, but also the willingness to use it. I look forward to seeing whether France and Germany back their words with muscle when diplomacy ultimately fails in Iran. They'll probably want to keep giving Iran another chance, until the negotiations eventually become about Iran giving up the nuclear weapons they've already developed and hidden. Think we'll have another dozen UN Resolutions on Iran?
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I am impressed that you have actually admitted that the US has taken the lead in some of the UN success stories (I would say most).
    It seems that US military missions within the UN framework were quite successful (e.g. Kuwait, former Yugoslavia, partly also the Korean War), while the independent ones did not go so well (Pig Bay, Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq...). Or do you have other examples post WWII? Maybe the War in Afghanistan can make the list, it wasn't officially sanctioned by the UN, although it had broad and active support of many nations including France, Canada, Germany, Great Britain, etc.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    I look forward to seeing whether France and Germany back their words with muscle when diplomacy ultimately fails in Iran. They'll probably want to keep giving Iran another chance, until the negotiations eventually become about Iran giving up the nuclear weapons they've already developed and hidden.
    Exactly! Just like last time with Saddam. Imagine the US hadn't taken away the WMD from him by invading Iraq! Those narrow-minded Germans, French, and the like, who just couldn't see the advantages of an invasion (a bit like the 70% Americans who can't see it now).
    Last edited by clulup; 03/17/2006 at 01:20 PM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. cardio's Avatar
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Exactly! Just like last time with Saddam. Imagine the US hadn't taken away the WMD from him by invading Iraq!
    Have you been following the release of documents for the last couple of days? While there is no smoking gun yet, even Saddam's top aides thought he had WMDs months after the multinational invasion. Some of his aides still say they are possibly in Iraq. The documents also tell the workers at facilities to be inspected by the UN how to decieve and what evidence to hide when they arrive.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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