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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by gt5l
    hooves I wish I could give you an intelligent answer other than saying individuals do not represent an entire religion. IMHO small groups are acting with motives that Islam has not promoted.
    And I think that's what Advance, and the rest of us are talking about. Nobody is bashing the common Muslim who lives a normal life. It's the radicals, and I would go so far as to say it's people who are commiting violence while hiding under religion. Most of the suicide bombers I would guess are uneducated, and easily manipulated. You'll notice bin-Laden, or al-Zawahri, would never strap an explosive to their bodies. Surely the lure of martyrdom and virgins must apply to them as well, yet they hide in the caves, instead of being out on the front line. They throw Islam at these young men (and women now,) and manipulate them into doing their dirty work.
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  2. #62  
    Ive been staying out of these Muslim bashing threads due to the close-mindedness exhibited by hoovs and ATM in the last one, but I cant let this one slide.

    People have been entering battles with near certainly of death for ages now. Were the London bombers, or the 911 hijackers uneducated, or merely committed.? What about the Japanese kamikaze pilots?

    Stop imagining that these people are special or different from any other committed ideologues ever in the world.

    Surur
  3.    #63  
    Since WWII is over I haven't started a thread about the kamikazee pilots. You haven't swayed me one iota. My hatred remains, I hate Muslim terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Ive been staying out of these Muslim bashing threads due to the close-mindedness exhibited by hoovs and ATM in the last one, but I cant let this one slide.

    People have been entering battles with near certainly of death for ages now. Were the London bombers, or the 911 hijackers uneducated, or merely committed.? What about the Japanese kamikaze pilots?

    Stop imagining that these people are special or different from any other committed ideologues ever in the world.

    Surur
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Ive been staying out of these Muslim bashing threads due to the close-mindedness exhibited by hoovs and ATM in the last one, but I cant let this one slide.

    Surur
    Really Surur?

    This thread has 63 posts so far and I've posted five. But tell me, in which part of my exhibition of closed-mindedness did I unfairly bash Muslims? Where did I tell an untruth? Where did I exaggerate?
  5. #65  
    In case the two messages above were intended for me to respond to, hoovs and ATM are on my ignore list, so obviously I have no idea what they said, and I wont therefore respond.

    Surur
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by gt5l
    hooves I wish I could give you an intelligent answer other than saying individuals do not represent an entire religion. IMHO small groups are acting with motives that Islam has not promoted.
    I'm certainly familiar with people co-opting religion to push a certain agenda. Many Christians of past Centuries have used religion to promote racialist views when one can clearly point out Christian doctrines that condemn this practice. Martin Luther King, Jr. had condemning words for the Christians of those generations that I can't help feel are apropos for today's Muslims:

    "More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be coworkers with God, and without this 'hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation. We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right." Letter From Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963
    It seems to me that the only thing that will stem the tide of anti-Islamic sentiment is when the good, the peaceful Muslims stand up to their own and say "Enough!" I don't care what they say to us, they seem like empty words against the strong actions of the terrorists. And when I see a protest against a comic strip I ask myself where the protesters against terrorists are.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    In case the two messages above were intended for me to respond to, hoovs and ATM are on my ignore list, so obviously I have no idea what they said, and I wont therefore respond.

    Surur
    Interesting answer. Maybe someone can "relay" the question to our friend since he only appears to be able to read the negative in my posts.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    It seems to me that the only thing that will stem the tide of anti-Islamic sentiment is when the good, the peaceful Muslims stand up to their own and say "Enough!" I don't care what they say to us, they seem like empty words against the strong actions of the terrorists.
    I agree but I wonder if fear prevents them from speaking out. Part of the issue with identifiying 'terrorits' in Iraq right now is that the citizens largely protect them. Why do they protect them? Is it out of fear, reprisal, ... Im not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    And when I see a protest against a comic strip I ask myself where the protesters against terrorists are.
    Maybe this is a reflection of the MSM more than the peaceful Muslims?
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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I agree but I wonder if fear prevents them from speaking out. Part of the issue with identifiying 'terrorits' in Iraq right now is that the citizens largely protect them. Why do they protect them? Is it out of fear, reprisal, ... Im not sure.
    Iraq is a different situation. The war increases the fear-factor exponentially. But in the rest of the world I tend to think the absence of people speaking out is largely simple indifference. No offense intended specifically towards Muslims--indifference is practiced by all civilizations and is one of the great evils of the world. It is to the discredit of the entire human race that in our lifetimes it is indifference that allowed 800,000 Rwandans to be slaughtered. Indifference is allowing thousands of Sudanese to be killed as we speak.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Iraq is a different situation. The war increases the fear-factor exponentially. But in the rest of the world I tend to think the absence of people speaking out is largely simple indifference. No offense intended specifically towards Muslims--indifference is practiced by all civilizations and is one of the great evils of the world. It is to the discredit of the entire human race that in our lifetimes it is indifference that allowed 800,000 Rwandans to be slaughtered. Indifference is allowing thousands of Sudanese to be killed as we speak.
    That seems to be a very good distinction...good point.
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  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I'm certainly familiar with people co-opting religion to push a certain agenda. Many Christians of past Centuries have used religion to promote racialist views when one can clearly point out Christian doctrines that condemn this practice. Martin Luther King, Jr. had condemning words for the Christians of those generations that I can't help feel are apropos for today's Muslims:



    It seems to me that the only thing that will stem the tide of anti-Islamic sentiment is when the good, the peaceful Muslims stand up to their own and say "Enough!" I don't care what they say to us, they seem like empty words against the strong actions of the terrorists. And when I see a protest against a comic strip I ask myself where the protesters against terrorists are.

    I think the Muslims have said Enough!!! Care to guess who they are trying to get the message across to?
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  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by nonobeez
    I think the Muslims have said Enough!!! Care to guess who they are trying to get the message across to?
    I hope not me. What are your thoughts?
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    And I think that's what Advance, and the rest of us are talking about. Nobody is bashing the common Muslim who lives a normal life. It's the radicals, and I would go so far as to say it's people who are commiting violence while hiding under religion. Most of the suicide bombers I would guess are uneducated, and easily manipulated. You'll notice bin-Laden, or al-Zawahri, would never strap an explosive to their bodies. Surely the lure of martyrdom and virgins must apply to them as well, yet they hide in the caves, instead of being out on the front line. They throw Islam at these young men (and women now,) and manipulate them into doing their dirty work.
    Thank you. You saved me a post.
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  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I hope not me. What are your thoughts?

    That was funny (ina good way) I think the Muslims have had enough of intervention from the outside.

    Who do you think is better off in Iraq now than 5 years ago?

    doctors? They are probably working more and making less.

    Police? they are a big target and risk their lives every day.

    Young kids? The ones that were around for Desert Storm probably were happy to see the end of it and were not so happy when the US invaded again.

    businessmen? I doubt bussiness is booming these days in Iraq.

    It's hard for you and I to see things from an Iraqi standpoint. lots of people are caught in th middle and don't really know what to do. I doubt many are ready to give up family members for a suside run... those are the radicals.
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  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by nonobeez
    That was funny (ina good way) I think the Muslims have had enough of intervention from the outside.

    Who do you think is better off in Iraq now than 5 years ago?

    doctors? They are probably working more and making less.

    Police? they are a big target and risk their lives every day.

    Young kids? The ones that were around for Desert Storm probably were happy to see the end of it and were not so happy when the US invaded again.

    businessmen? I doubt bussiness is booming these days in Iraq.

    It's hard for you and I to see things from an Iraqi standpoint. lots of people are caught in th middle and don't really know what to do. I doubt many are ready to give up family members for a suside run... those are the radicals.
    Well, two things about that. First, actually, business is booming in Iraq. Especially telecommunications. The average citizen outside of Baghdad's hot zones is doing better monitarily. There are still blackouts and brownouts but those happened under Saddam too. I'm concerned that people don't believe what they see on TV is happening everywhere in Iraq. Knowing two soldiers on the ground, I can tell you that there are many areas of the country that are living in peace.

    Second, as I said, Iraq is a bit of a different situation. My statement was mainly aimed at Muslims outside of the war zones who are not speaking out about the radicals in their midst.
  16. cardio's Avatar
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    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by nonobeez
    That was funny (ina good way) I think the Muslims have had enough of intervention from the outside.

    Who do you think is better off in Iraq now than 5 years ago?

    doctors? They are probably working more and making less.

    Police? they are a big target and risk their lives every day.

    Young kids? The ones that were around for Desert Storm probably were happy to see the end of it and were not so happy when the US invaded again.

    businessmen? I doubt bussiness is booming these days in Iraq.

    It's hard for you and I to see things from an Iraqi standpoint. lots of people are caught in th middle and don't really know what to do. I doubt many are ready to give up family members for a suside run... those are the radicals.
    If you take the time to talk to the people (not media) that have been there for any length of time over 2 weeks you will get a different perspective. Yes, there are issues that still need work, but do not consider the whole Iraq situation by what you see on CNN. Look at the news from the US that is on CNN (or any media outlet), if that is all you saw you would assume this nation is in real trouble (worse than it is) with all the murders, teachers haveing sex with 11 year old students, moms drowning their kids, drugs, prostitution, robbery, illnes, political corruption, chemical spills, polluted rivers, natural disasters and the list of bad news goes on.
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  17. #77  
    Hi,

    Don't want to be rude, but I have to remind you that since this is an "Islam" thread, Iraq is not Islam. People may confuse actions of a war torn, highly sensative individuals with Islam.
    Which has little to do with it for that matter.

    Someone was speaking about Muslims speaking against terorists, There are actions & rallys against it but they are not as flamboyant so I doubt you'll hear of it in the news (not great journalisim I suppose). You may want to search the "not in my name" campaign in the US, or listen to Yusuf (a converted Britain) in a song that condemns the murders commited in the name of Islam (I can upload it for anyone if intrested). Arab actions are mostly in arabic, if someone knows how to read it or finds a good transelator I can point you to articles from around the Arab world in the leading newspapers and to forums so you can know first hand what people are thinking.
    The only transelator I know of is www.tarjim.com, but you need to pay to use it.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Hi,

    Don't want to be rude, but I have to remind you that since this is an "Islam" thread, Iraq is not Islam. People may confuse actions of a war torn, highly sensative individuals with Islam.
    Which has little to do with it for that matter.

    Someone was speaking about Muslims speaking against terorists, There are actions & rallys against it but they are not as flamboyant so I doubt you'll hear of it in the news (not great journalisim I suppose). You may want to search the "not in my name" campaign in the US, or listen to Yusuf (a converted Britain) in a song that condemns the murders commited in the name of Islam (I can upload it for anyone if intrested). Arab actions are mostly in arabic, if someone knows how to read it or finds a good transelator I can point you to articles from around the Arab world in the leading newspapers and to forums so you can know first hand what people are thinking.
    The only transelator I know of is www.tarjim.com, but you need to pay to use it.
    Redbelt,

    I agree with your first statement about Iraq. But I'm confused about your second. I'm familiar with a couple of organizations: one is Not in My Name and the other is Not in Our Name. The first is an organization protesting "illegal" settlements in "occupied" Palestine and the other organization protests the War on Terror. So, which one is supposed to be by Muslims protesting against Islamist terrorists?
  19. #79  
    ^^
    I really don't know for certain hoovs, I know some organisation was campaigning against terrorists acting in Islam's name. It might be CAIR, not certain.
    Anyhow, these terrorists are using verses or sayings out of place.
    for example: if I tell a CEO to maximize profit & raise the living standards of employees, then he goes sacking everyone to show immense profit, he is not following my second order which renders his actions useless, nay unwanted even.
    This is what they are doing. They say they are fighting to rais the name of Islam & god but they are directly disobeying numorous teachings of not to kill, to respect allies, to attend to neighbours, to not force the religion on others, etc etc etc.
    Now, wether they are idiots that cannot see this fact, or smart people who do it on purpose to serve an agenda, I do not know. But I do lean that thier leaders are the latter while thier followers are the first.
    Bottom line, Islam DOES NOT order any of this, nay it forbids it! People blowing up civilians are criminals no matter what thier religion, race or country.
  20. cardio's Avatar
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    ^^
    I really don't know for certain hoovs, I know some organisation was campaigning against terrorists acting in Islam's name. It might be CAIR, not certain.
    Anyhow, these terrorists are using verses or sayings out of place.
    for example: if I tell a CEO to maximize profit & raise the living standards of employees, then he goes sacking everyone to show immense profit, he is not following my second order which renders his actions useless, nay unwanted even.
    This is what they are doing. They say they are fighting to rais the name of Islam & god but they are directly disobeying numorous teachings of not to kill, to respect allies, to attend to neighbours, to not force the religion on others, etc etc etc.
    Now, wether they are idiots that cannot see this fact, or smart people who do it on purpose to serve an agenda, I do not know. But I do lean that thier leaders are the latter while thier followers are the first.
    Bottom line, Islam DOES NOT order any of this, nay it forbids it! People blowing up civilians are criminals no matter what thier religion, race or country.
    Well said Redbelt.
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