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  1. #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Is it appropriate to kill a child if you knew he would grow up to be Hitler?

    Surur
    Oh cripes. I'm even gonna roll my eyes on that one.

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    #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Do you understand why Muslims in European countries are going off? They're mostly living in poverty and it takes little for a group that's pissed off like that from going off. We already discussed this with immigrant groups like the Irish in America.
    I am getting tired of everyone falling back on their situation to excuse their behavior. Poor Mike Tyson must have gone to bed hungry one night so he bit his opponents ear. Oh you have to excuse little Johnny, his dad drank too much that is why he raped Susie, it's not his fault. Oh the muslims are poor so it is OK for them burn an embassy.
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  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    There are numerous examples, e.g. shouldn't Bush be apologizing unconditionally for invading Iraq on false claims of WMD, and withdraw immediately? And shouldn't America be supporting measures to reduce global warming unconditionally, no matter what the effect on their global competitive position. And shouldn't you be boycotting google for supporting censorship in China etc etc etc. The fact that you cant give me examples yourself indicates the mind blindness that affects you.

    I challenge you then. Give me a few examples of American transgressions which you should be ashamed of, and would in a fair world be rectified?

    Surur
    Surur,

    Aren't we talking about religions? I didn't give you examples because you made the claim, not me. I realize I have a lot of work to do in my own back yard.
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    You mean there's enough severe poverty in Europe that the poor are rising up? Isn't Europe a utopia of free social services vastly superior to those in the US?

    Please forgive me for the schadenfreude...
    Yea, I know your being snarky but there's an element of overt discrimination regarding the European issues.
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I am getting tired of everyone falling back on their situation to excuse their behavior. Poor Mike Tyson must have gone to bed hungry one night so he bit his opponents ear. Oh you have to excuse little Johnny, his dad drank too much that is why he raped Susie, it's not his fault. Oh the muslims are poor so it is OK for them burn an embassy.
    It's not an excuse. Don't think I'm not saying everyone destroying property etc is not criminally responsible. I'm trying to get you guys to see the differences between the muslim groups you're trying to lump together.
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    #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Um, two countries are currently being occupied.

    I understand you're having difficulty differentiating between jihadists and poor european immigrants, but if you would just try, you'll see one group to crush, one to smack the europeans around for, and lean on the moderates to control their own.

    It's not difficult if you think it through instead of lumping these very different issues into one group.
    Which countries, if the occupying forces you speak of are invited and asked to stay by the gov't of the country then you are attempting to compare two different things.

    Poor european immigrants who are destroying public and private property, threatening innocent people with bloodshed and wreaking havoc across the continent.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I'm trying to get you guys to see the differences between the muslim groups you're trying to lump together.
    If the behavior is the same, why should they not be lumped together?
  8. #168  
    I was referring to Insertion's "backyard"

    It should be obvious to people what's really going on here is a clash of cultures. It has not been Christianity against Islam for a long time, but Islamic culture vs secular western culture.

    Insertion sees no "Grey" when crowds riot. He sees no antecedents, no causative factors and no extenuating circumstances. He would make a good hanging judge.

    When I say back yard I mean American culture, from which perspective Insertion is making his judgments. I wonder if he judges American Western culture as harshly as he judges the middle-eastern Islamic culture he loathes so much.

    Surur
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    It's not an excuse. Don't think I'm not saying everyone destroying property etc is not criminally responsible. I'm trying to get you guys to see the differences between the muslim groups you're trying to lump together.
    You do make a good point. The riots in France, for example, were more like the riots in LA than the 3/11 or 7/7 bombings. But these current uprisings are almost ubiquitous in the Muslims world. Surely there's more behind it than mere economic disparity.

    But, again, that's a small part of the picture. There's still much to answer for.
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    #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    It's not an excuse. Don't think I'm not saying everyone destroying property etc is not criminally responsible. I'm trying to get you guys to see the differences between the muslim groups you're trying to lump together.
    I really don't see much difference. Threatening everyone who insults Mohammed (an insult is the perception of the individual) with death is just one step from someone strapping a bomb on the chest and blowing up a cafe full of innocent women and children. They have proclaimed their intention, and their belief system encourages them to follow through. They will die a Martyrs (sp) death and be instantly rewarded.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Is it appropriate to kill a child if you knew he would grow up to be Hitler?
    No, because that is not possible to know outside of a sci-fi movie.

    Your hypothetical also presumes a certain determinism I would expect an atheist to reject.

    I should note that in this instance I do agree with ou to some extent. Although I feel it is always wrong to take innocent life, the definition of innocent can be debated and sometimes the balance between a larger good must be struck and the "less wrong" option must be chosen.
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  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Oh cripes. I'm even gonna roll my eyes on that one.

    http://www.google.com/search?q=Would...ad+a+chance%3F

    Its a pretty old question, and it exposes the fallacy of absolute morality.

    Surur
  13. #173  
    Surur,

    Has there ever been a culture that believes it is okay to torture babies for fun?
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    There are numerous examples, e.g. shouldn't Bush be apologizing unconditionally for invading Iraq on false claims of WMD, and withdraw immediately? And shouldn't America be supporting measures to reduce global warming unconditionally, no matter what the effect on their global competitive position. And shouldn't you be boycotting google for supporting censorship in China etc etc etc. The fact that you cant give me examples yourself indicates the mind blindness that affects you.

    I challenge you then. Give me a few examples of American transgressions which you should be ashamed of, and would in a fair world be rectified?

    Surur
    I've discussed my views of the current war enough here. There is plenty of Iraq talk in other threads. I don't really want to go over them again, unless it's really neccesary.

    The US is and has been doing things to reduce emissions.

    I don't personally care what Google does. China is $$$. If you don't want to support companies that do business with China, fine. But you better back up the biggest roll-off dumpster you can find, because your house is packed with goods made either in part, or in whole from China...indeed, right in YOUR backyard.

    But I'll give you a transgression. Kosovo. Had nothing to do with US interests. Though oddly enough, Muslims there seemed to support us.
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  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Your hypothetical also presumes a certain determinism I would expect an atheist to reject.
    Bingo.
  16. #176  
    So 100 000 Iraqi's die due to American intervention, and the country is in chaos, and all you care about is a few westerns who's throat got slit in cold blood (as happen in alleys in America daily)? Which is more disgusting? Where is the absolute morality now?

    Surur
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    It's not an excuse. Don't think I'm not saying everyone destroying property etc is not criminally responsible. I'm trying to get you guys to see the differences between the muslim groups you're trying to lump together.
    Anger is misdirected. Let's take the Middle Eastern Muslims in oil rich countries. Billions of dollars are being made, yet unless you're part of a ruling family, what have you got to show for this?

    Countries like Syria, Jordan and Lebenon, not so oil rich. Guess they have an excuse. But wait, Israel. How do you explain that? They seem to make great strides in science and technology.

    The problem to me, is within their own borders, not some other religion. It's internal why they're impoverished.
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  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Surur,

    Has there ever been a culture that believes it is okay to torture babies for fun?
    I believe the Spartans believed in exposing their babies for a few days soon after birth, so as only to raise warriors. Is that similar enough?

    Surur
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    #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    So 100 000 Iraqi's die due to American intervention, and the country is in chaos, and all you care about is a few westerns who's throat got slit in cold blood (as happen in alleys in America daily)? Which is more disgusting? Where is the absolute morality now?

    Surur
    How about the 300,000 Iraqi's who were not murdered by Saddam and his henchman because of US intervention?

    But let's try to stay on topic.
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  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The effective thing to do is pressure moderates to reign in their own.
    DaThomas....a point we can fully agree on!

    Very well said!

    ...............but is it happening?
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