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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    So what are you saying?
    I am saying, most of you know very little about the religion itself. the cartoons are offending & I think were done on purpose because, had it been a normal cartooning contest, (1) why pick a religious leader? (2) why were all the cartoons showing violence and stupidity? (3) if it is not intentional, wouldn't you at least apologize for the discomfort you caused your friends? Freedom of speech does not mean that they can trample over our freedom.
    I agree with you that those caricatures were mainly published as a provocation and as such not positive, and also not a useful application of freedom of speech. But still, the reaction to this provocation is not justified. Also note that nobody trampled on the freedom of Muslims. Nobody was forced to look at those cartoons. You don't want them? Fair enough, don't buy the newspaper.

    Everybody should free to believe in Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, or also not believe in them, find them stupid, or whatever, without having his embassy in a far away country torched.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #102  
    The reaction to the caricatures should remind us about what a great advantage it is that religion in the liberal Western societies was pushed back by the ideas of Enlightenment. It is those ideas which form the basis of our democracies, freedom of speech, reason, the application of science, modern medicine, etc. Thank goodness we got rid of fundamentalism, let's hope it never comes back, at least not more than it already has in some places...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #103  
    ...in fact, it's not religion per se which is bad, it is the fundamentlist, dogmatic adherence to any belief system, the idea that the own beliefs are literally true, true in an absolute sense - that's what causes the problem, regardless of whether you're a Muslim, a Christian, a Communist, or whatever.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...in fact, it's not religion per se which is bad, it is the fundamentlist, dogmatic adherence to any belief system, the idea that the own beliefs are literally true, true in an absolute sense - that's what causes the problem, regardless of whether you're a Muslim, a Christian, a Communist, or whatever.
    I agree. The problem is that religion, aka faith, aka belief are by their very definition impossible to prove. The less provable one's faith is, more strident is the response when questioned about it. My god is bigger (better) than yours. Agree or I'll kill/destroy you.

    It's a recipe for disaster.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  5. #105  
    Let the world see the cartoons and the cartoon characters who are burning flags, buildings and crying for blood. So many say it is just a "few" fanatics, sure seems like there are more than a "few". If the "majority" of this religion believe in peace and harmony they better stand up and be counted. The "few" rotten apples are truely rotting the entire barrel.

    Let your women be free!
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    ...Introducing islam to a new country was always preceeded with a letter of invite, explaining the religion. should it be refused then war is waged, however, no killing or plundering was permitted. Trees were not to be harmed. Children, women, elderly & un-armed men were not harmed also. They were only allowed to fight thoes who fight them bearing arms
    Let me make sure I have this right:

    Step 1: Send Kind letter of invitation
    Step 2: If refused, wage war. But, only fight those who offer armed resistance.

    In other words, you can accept Islam peacefully or under threat -- your choice.

    Are you sure this is the defense of Islam you want to stick with?
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Only partially correct. While Muslims did use force to make countries join them, this is a secondary approach. History is filled with peace & reason to preach. Introducing islam to a new country was always preceeded with a letter of invite, explaining the religion. should it be refused then war is waged, however, no killing or plundering was permitted. Trees were not to be harmed. Children, women, elderly & un-armed men were not harmed also. They were only allowed to fight thoes who fight them bearing arms.
    Oh my! Read the history of India (or the Delhi Sultanate) for details on how this ACTUALLY happened. The brutal wave of attacks by Persian and Mongol and even Afgan rulers are well-documented. That's the reason why the Peacock Throne is currently in Iran and not Delhi. And the library of Nalanda was torched.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Wow, amazing.


    Why outrage on cartoons?
    It is beleived to be unacceptable to depict liknesses of any prophet or God himself.


    But thats freedom of speech.
    no, any freedom stops where the freedom of others begin. I can't go to the local 7/11, take what I want and leave because I'm "free". Here I'm trespassing on others rights.
    Amazing is right. What of the rights of those whose properties are getting burn and those risking getting kidnapped and killed in the middle east? What have THEY done to deserve this?

    If I start a (hypothetical) religion in which the utterance of the name of any god besides mine is unacceptable to me, does that give me the right to loot, burn and kill anyone who utters the word "Allah", or "Jehovah" or "Ram" or "Krishna"? The answer is: NO.

    Just because something is unacceptable to me, it does not give me the right to do anything and everything in response.

    To their credit, some voices of moderation has been heard in the last few days. Case in point:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4685574.stm
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Man I could agree with you more...that's why it's so important to keep our right to bear arms ammendment intact! 1911sforever...you with me on that?!
    Yup.

    This war is coming to our communities.
  10.    #110  
    I look forward to this approach in the South. There will be a lot of bloody turbins after they knock on doors.

    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Let me make sure I have this right:

    Step 1: Send Kind letter of invitation
    Step 2: If refused, wage war. But, only fight those who offer armed resistance.

    In other words, you can accept Islam peacefully or under threat -- your choice.

    Are you sure this is the defense of Islam you want to stick with?
  11. #111  
    Redbelt, A couple questions.....

    1) It does appear that with the recent situations in France and with this cartoon that there is a will to protest against wrongs they feel are against them.

    If violence is not condoned, and yet there are fanaticals killing innocent families in their name......Why then have I not seen protests when a road side bomb goes off, or bus is bombed, or a person's head is sawed off on TV.....all in their name? If a cartoon is an offense to their religion and violence is an offense to their religion and there are those killing (a very extreme form of violence) in their name, why not the same outrage and protests?

    This is what I am have trouble understanding.

    2) I have absolutely no problem with someone being offended or even protesting when it occurs. That is a right we all should have. But you speak about the rights to riot in response. Do the rights of the innocent business owners come into play when their whole life is burnt to the ground because a newspaper in another country published a cartoon?
  12.    #112  
    You can learn some things of the quran here at this (via a nice comic strip)website .
  13. #113  
    Hello people, dont get confused between fighting in Muslim countries and these protests. When people riot they riot. The reason for the riot is often lost. The Irish riot, the English riot, L.A. riots. The real hypocrisy here is to see these people as very different from yourselves. Any group that feels itself disadvantaged can riot. Wasn't the Boston Tea Party a riot?

    Face it, the people have a legitimate grievance. They took it out by rioting, which is wrong, but hardly uncommon, especially in poorer communities. Does this mean anything more than any other riot in history?

    Dont confuse this with people being killed in Iraq. There's a war going on there, if anyone did not notice. Whenever anyone gets kidnapped there I first wonder what they are doing there in the first place. Its a war zone for heaven's sake!! Remember the atrocities committed in South East Asia by the combatants, including Americans, before you tar a whole religion.

    Surur
  14. #114  
    Keep spinning...

    Like I said, excuse after excuse.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  15.    #115  
    Surur,

    You are not doubt intelligent, but I'm amazed at each time someone directs a question to you, you answer it with somebody in the past displaying violence. Your latest example of the Boston Tea Party is great! Those damn Yanks, the Brits should go finish them off!
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The reaction to the caricatures should remind us about what a great advantage it is that religion in the liberal Western societies was pushed back by the ideas of Enlightenment. It is those ideas which form the basis of our democracies, freedom of speech, reason, the application of science, modern medicine, etc. Thank goodness we got rid of fundamentalism, let's hope it never comes back, at least not more than it already has in some places...

    ...in fact, it's not religion per se which is bad, it is the fundamentlist, dogmatic adherence to any belief system, the idea that the own beliefs are literally true, true in an absolute sense - that's what causes the problem, regardless of whether you're a Muslim, a Christian, a Communist, or whatever.
    Hear hear btw. I fully agree. Flexibility is always important.

    Surur
  17. #117  
    This is one of those cases where everyone is wrong. People are wrong to make death threats and the papers that republished the comics out of solidarity and to demonstrate their rights made my top 10 list of "stupid moves of all time." They proved nothing and helped nobody. That is not the way to go through life.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Surur,

    You are not doubt intelligent, but I'm amazed at each time someone directs a question to you, you answer it with somebody in the past displaying violence. Your latest example of the Boston Tea Party is great! Those damn Yanks, the Brits should go finish them off!
    Thats because its important for people to stop thinking they are in a special epoch in time. To give an example, the successive waves of immigration into USA were all feared and thought to be the end of the world, but eventually they all integrated and actually added something to the USA.

    The long view is very important.

    Surur
  19.    #119  
    So how should we take the beheadings, with a grain of salt until the Muslims assimilate into society enough where beheadings are no big deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Thats because its important for people to stop thinking they are in a special epoch in time. To give an example, the successive waves of immigration into USA were all feared and thought to be the end of the world, but eventually they all integrated and actually added something to the USA.

    The long view is very important.

    Surur
  20. #120  
    So, whats the score here? How many more killings and bombings are the Muslims
    allowed before they've caught up?

    Just so I know. Gotta watch my ***...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."

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