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  1. vw2002's Avatar
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Do yopu guys realize the scale of atrocities commited in the name of christianity? Try these numbers from a website I googled.
    http://www.geocities.com/iconoclastes.geo/victims.html



    There's a whole lot more, but reading it all makes me feel sick. You guys are being way "holier than thou".

    Its obviously the gory beheadings that are getting to you, but you dont worry about scalping, being torn limb from limb on the rack, putting heads on spikes, burning to death etc etc

    Let me re-iterate again - the only reason Christians arnt behaving the same way right now, is because of the rise of secularism. You are all "bad" Christians. Good Christians would not tolerate what you are tolerating in your society right now. 300 years ago you did not. Now Christianity is weak, and you do. The same will happen to Islam. Such is life.

    Surur

    SURUR YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MEDIEVAL TIMES!!!! There`s a big difference between present and past - at least in the western society . Do we STILL live in that era?

    Do christians still carry out rule of law with BEHEADINGS, SCALPINGS, ETC? no. But certain muslims apparently still live in the medieval ages, now dont they? So its okay for them to saw heads off, right? Some cultures very clearly have evolved into modern society while others have not, and remain as primitive savages.

    So what was done barbarically hundreds of years ago warrants muslims to behead people today, is that your logic?

    DISGUSTING
    Last edited by vw2002; 02/05/2006 at 08:35 PM.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    SURUR YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MEDIEVAL TIMES!!!! big difference between present and past - at least in the western society . do we STILL live in that era?

    do christians still carry out rule of law with BEHEADINGS, SCALPINGS, ETC? no. but certain muslims apparently still live in the medieval ages, now dont they? its clear that some cultures have evolved into modern society while others clearly have not, and are still primitive savages.

    so what was done barbarically hundreds of years ago warrants muslims to behead people today, is that your logic?

    DISGUSTING
    When the Americans where exterminating the Natives, was that medieval times also. Or when Hitler tried to exterminate the Jews. And dont forget the Rwandan Massacres, the Kosovan genocide attempt etc. These things still go on every day. In fact, are their not state sanctioned murders in the USA, which is considered barbaric by many other countries? You need to understand that your morality is not universal, and that even your morality is subject to change in the future, as it has been in the past.

    I'm not saying you should condone beheadings, but you need to understand that in that area, in that culture, one can see where it stems from. You need to understand that it could very well be you there, holding that knife, if it was you born there. In the same way that you could be a French executioner running a guillotine, or driving a pair of horses pulling some-one limb from limb. People are all the same, and its their environment and culture which shapes them, and tell them whats acceptable. They are still human, just like you or I.

    Surur
  3.    #83  
    Until that time machine is built and we can arrest the Pope from the 1500's, let's focus on the current Muslim murderers.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    When the Americans where exterminating the Natives, was that medieval times also. Or when Hitler tried to exterminate the Jews. And dont forget the Rwandan Massacres, the Kosovan genocide attempt etc. These things still go on every day. In fact, are their not state sanctioned murders in the USA, which is considered barbaric by many other countries? You need to understand that your morality is not universal, and that even your morality is subject to change in the future, as it has been in the past.

    I'm not saying you should condone beheadings, but you need to understand that in that area, in that culture, one can see where it stems from. You need to understand that it could very well be you there, holding that knife, if it was you born there. In the same way that you could be a French executioner running a guillotine, or driving a pair of horses pulling some-one limb from limb. People are all the same, and its their environment and culture which shapes them, and tell them whats acceptable. They are still human, just like you or I.

    Surur
    Yes. This is the struggle of the ages. We need to prevail in this struggle, or the world enters another dark age.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    You need to understand that your morality is not universal
    I could not disagree with that more. There are some morals that are universally true. The UN (which is as close as we get to a place where peoples can gather to speak as one) recognizes universal human rights.

    For example, freedom of thought and freedom of conscience are, in fact, universal human rights. This is a moral judgement that is universal in scope.

    Fundamentalist Islam seems to have a problem with the modern world. Some fundamentalists is other religions do as well. The difference is that fundamentalist Muslims in large numbers are acting upon those medieval impulses while most of the rest of the world has moved on. To the extent that they continue to influence the Islamic masses, they represent a threat to civilization - Western or otherwise. Note I am referring to fundamentalists - not all Muslims. I'll note also that the voice of the moderate Muslim is not audible above the chants of the mobs calling for beheadings, bombings, and death.

    Citing past transgressions by others does not excuse what is being done today in the name of Allah.
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  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by ClarenceCM3
    Human are evil all over the world, in every nation, of every race, and in every religion.
    this is, of course a central message of Christianity.
    Nobody goes around saying, Christian extremist bombing of Okalahoma city builder.
    Uh... because he was an anti-government extremist and a nut - not a religious nut, by the way.
    Christian extremet david coress complex in texas.
    Yes, a genuine wacko - who killed no one before being burned alive with his followers by a very secular US government
    Christian killings in america "whick america leads the world in murders per year". As a matter of fact more america were murdered, then people who died in the twin towers. In 1990 something over 11,000 murders in one year alone in America. But no one claim this is because of christianity. It becuase some people are evil.
    This is true, but is a completely pointless comparison. Those murders are not committed in the name of God. Most of them are committed as crimes of passion or over drugs. The entire point of this post is that many Muslims are using their religion as the entire justification for what they do.
    Imagine this, Cathloic extremest nazi germany. Cristian fundalmentalist American Slavery lol.
    Germany Catholic? The entirety of northern Germany and most of former Prussia would be surprised to find that out. Naziism was in fact one of the secular scourges of the 20th century. Hitler claimed no divine authority or sanction as a primary justification for his actions.
    You are a America "nationalism", in a majority christian nation "facism", and majority white '"racism", it ok for you to turn a blind eye on people similiar to you and only judge there action, and not a group. But anyone in a different group, let the stereotyping begin.

    I hope we as a nation learn from our past mistake, and not go down this road again.
    America is the one place in the world where anyone from any race or religion can succeed at whatever they want to.

    One of the reasons for this whole "cartoon" flap is the disenchantment of the many Muslims in Europe who are not and never will be accepted as "Europeans". Many Muslims come to America as well. Those that do can chose to become Americans and will be accepted as just as "American" as someone whose relatives floated over on the Mayflower or trekked across the Siberian land-bridge 15,000 years ago.
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  7. #87  
    ClarenceCM3,

    Timothy McVeigh was a self-proclaimed atheist. Not only that but an Islamic sympathizer. Bad Example.

    Surer,

    You are very wrong. The reason Christians don't act like they did in the 10th - 16th Centuries is EDUCATION. Before the mass production of the Bible in layman's language the laity had to rely on a power hungry few in the clergy to dictate religious doctrines. After they could read the Bible for themselves the Christian world started to change and contrary to being worse Christians, people were able to be better Christians according to their own consciences. It didn't happen overnight, but it did happen.

    On the other hand, Atta and his cohorts were, by all accounts, extremely well educated and well-versed in the Quran.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I could not disagree with that more. There are some morals that are universally true. The UN (which is as close as we get to a place where peoples can gather to speak as one) recognizes universal human rights.

    For example, freedom of thought and freedom of conscience are, in fact, universal human rights. This is a moral judgement that is universal in scope.

    Fundamentalist Islam seems to have a problem with the modern world. Some fundamentalists is other religions do as well. The difference is that fundamentalist Muslims in large numbers are acting upon those medieval impulses while most of the rest of the world has moved on. To the extent that they continue to influence the Islamic masses, they represent a threat to civilization - Western or otherwise. Note I am referring to fundamentalists - not all Muslims. I'll note also that the voice of the moderate Muslim is not audible above the chants of the mobs calling for beheadings, bombings, and death.

    Citing past transgressions by others does not excuse what is being done today in the name of Allah.
    The point of citing past transgressions (and more recent ones) is to demonstrate how recent the current concepts of morality are, and how the current actions of people are not really governed by morality, even on the side of the Americans.

    One of the central tenets of Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is the right to life. Yet America still uses the death penalty. America refuses to obey the world court. America did not sign up to the Kyoto protocol, and consider it moral to continue to pollute the world 5 times more per person than anyone else.

    I am not making out this list to make you look bad. I just dont think you go to bed at night worrying about the immoral behavior of your government. That's because there is no such thing as Universal Morality.

    Surur
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    ClarenceCM3,

    Timothy McVeigh was a self-proclaimed atheist. Not only that but an Islamic sympathizer. Bad Example.

    Surer,

    You are very wrong. The reason Christians don't act like they did in the 10th - 16th Centuries is EDUCATION. Before the mass production of the Bible in layman's language the laity had to rely on a power hungry few in the clergy to dictate religious doctrines. After they could read the Bible for themselves the Christian world started to change and contrary to being worse Christians, people were able to be better Christians according to their own consciences. It didn't happen overnight, but it did happen.

    On the other hand, Atta and his cohorts were, by all accounts, extremely well educated and well-versed in the Quran.
    Education in the Bible did not lead to the improved behavior in the western world, education into the sciences led to the waning power of the Church. Maybe the problem was that the 911 hi-jackers studied the Qua-ran too much, and humanistic philosophers too little.

    Surur
  10. eKeith's Avatar
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    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I could not disagree with that more. There are some morals that are universally true. The UN (which is as close as we get to a place where peoples can gather to speak as one) recognizes universal human rights...
    Really? Is this why the US is one of the few countries that have not joined the International Criminal Court?
    Morality is used when convenient by every country...
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  11. #91  
    Wow, amazing.

    Alot of what was written is true, and a alot more is not.

    Me, being a muslim, in an Arabic country, can tell you an alternative point of view.

    First of all, to understand about Islam, the cartoons, the struggle with Israel or anything else for that matter, go to the source.
    Do not, go to learn about Islam from an anti-islam website or from sources that are not muslim. You can't ask a Palm aficinado how reliable Windows Mobile is for example nor you can get real medical advice from some one who has a doctor for a nephew.
    My point is if you don't go to the source, your info is nothing more than hersay.

    Saying that, do not take what I say forgranted, you have to go out there and read and ask.

    First of all about Islam:
    Prophet Mohammed did NOT have 12 wives, Did NOT marry a relative or a girl of 9. There were no other "relevations" to say that this is OK.
    Islam is an Arabic word meaning to surrender & beleive. You cannot be forced, for example, to be muslim because it is impossible. Just the same as you can't be forced to like a movie even if your forced to say you do.

    Islam conciders itself a continuation of the Ibarhimic relegions (including Christianity & Judisim), these, and other, religions all preached the same god & principal. The only difference is that thier messangers were sent to specific people, while we beleive that Prophet Mohammed was sent with the final "update" if you will that will stand time and space. Prophet Mohammed was also Illiterate. Thus it was impossible for him to write the quran himself. The quran was memorised by several of his followers, it was later on after his death that it was collected and bound.
    More on islam can be seen in islamtomorrow.com, if your intrested.

    Why outrage on cartoons?
    It is beleived to be unacceptable to depict liknesses of any prophet or God himself.

    Yet Christians depict pictures of Jesus Christ and nothing happened?
    That is because it is acceptable in thier belief and it is done to to serve thier own purposes.

    How is the Danish Cartoons any different?
    They were drawn with the intention to insualt & insite. Why else would you draw a prominent religious leader as a criminal? Just put any historical religious figure of your choice instead of the prophet to be immediatly insaulted.

    But thats freedom of speech.
    no, any freedom stops where the freedom of others begin. I can't go to the local 7/11, take what I want and leave because I'm "free". Here I'm trespassing on others rights.

    The muslims are hypocrits anyway, look at thier cartoons!
    Aha, here we split into 2 subjects.
    Muslims ARE NOT Islam. I am sure you understand people are different, we all have laws in our countries, yet not all of us abide by them 100%. why? human nature I guess.

    That is one. two, is our cartoons. Most (if not all) the cartoons are featuring symboles of Israel & the Zionist regimne. NOT JEWS. I do not say that such cartoons may not exist, I just did not run into any. Cartoons against Israel are very logically common because, we are at war with them. Such racist and offending cartoons were also seen on the papers of any country that ever went to war. Remember the popeye cartoons with the Japs? What did you draw in the cold war? British & French?

    So what are you saying?
    I am saying, most of you know very little about the religion itself. the cartoons are offending & I think were done on purpose because, had it been a normal cartooning contest, (1) why pick a religious leader? (2) why were all the cartoons showing violence and stupidity? (3) if it is not intentional, wouldn't you at least apologize for the discomfort you caused your friends? Freedom of speech does not mean that they can trample over our freedom.
    Such absolute Freedome is a utopia that is not logical and impossible.

    Sorry if I was a bit long, I'm joining this post after 5 pages & wanted to catch up! ^_^
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    ...So what are you saying?
    I am saying, most of you know very little about the religion itself. the cartoons are offending & I think were done on purpose because, had it been a normal cartooning contest, (1) why pick a religious leader? (2) why were all the cartoons showing violence and stupidity? (3) if it is not intentional, wouldn't you at least apologize for the discomfort you caused your friends? Freedom of speech does not mean that they can trample over our freedom.
    Such absolute Freedome is a utopia that is not logical and impossible....
    But, are you saying that the destructive acts that have followed the printing of the cartoon are justified in light of the trampled freedom?
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Prophet Mohammed did NOT have 12 wives, Did NOT marry a relative or a girl of 9. There were no other "relevations" to say that this is OK.
    I find this quote from Wikipedia disturbing...
    From 595 to 619, Muhammad had only one wife, Khadijah. After her death he married Aisha, then Hafsa. Later he was to marry more wives, for a total of eleven (nine or ten living at the time of his death). He only had a total of 4 wives at a time and only remarried after their deaths.
    As most people know....wikipedia has a feature that allows it's contents to be changed by anybody. And this contradicts itself....first it says that he was married to 12 wives. And a total of 9 or 10 were alive at the time of his death. Then a line says that he only had a total of 4 wives at a time (which is by islamic law?). I wonder which one is correct and which line has been "added" to help their viewpoint?

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Islam is an Arabic word meaning to surrender & beleive. You cannot be forced, for example, to be muslim because it is impossible. Just the same as you can't be forced to like a movie even if your forced to say you do.
    I disagree. If you are extremely intolerant to other religions (i.e. DEATH IS INVOLVED), this does a GREAT deal to force a region into a single religion. You're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Islam conciders itself a continuation of the Ibarhimic relegions (including Christianity & Judisim), these, and other, religions all preached the same god & principal.
    Only partially correct. All three teach about the same ONE God. Islam has VERY different principals...going straight to their prophet who did spread his belief through war instead of Jesus that spread the gospel through peaceful means.
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    How is the Danish Cartoons any different?
    They were drawn with the intention to insualt & insite. Why else would you draw a prominent religious leader as a criminal? Just put any historical religious figure of your choice instead of the prophet to be immediatly insaulted.
    Are you saying that the Catholic Church has never been put in the position of being insulted? A google search would give pages of insults if you tried. And what about the SNL music with Sinead O'Conner who ripped up a picture of the Pope on the air. This seems a "bit" insulting to the Catholic Religion. I wonder what would of happened if she ripped apart a picture of Mohammad or the top Islamic Cleric.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by eKeith
    Really? Is this why the US is one of the few countries that have not joined the International Criminal Court?
    Morality is used when convenient by every country...
    Not all moral views are universal truths. This is obvious. It's also obvious that some are.
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  15.    #95  
    The ironic point here is the cartoons were portraying the religion of Islam as a murderous one, and now demonstrations throughout the world are proving the cartoons correct. Islam could of made real strides here by acting civil, but instead they are acting like murderers/idiots. They have not gained any allies.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Yet America still uses the death penalty. America refuses to obey the world court. America did not sign up to the Kyoto protocol, and consider it moral to continue to pollute the world 5 times more per person than anyone else.

    I am not making out this list to make you look bad. I just dont think you go to bed at night worrying about the immoral behavior of your government. That's because there is no such thing as Universal Morality.
    Of course there is. In the secular atheist's world there is not.

    People are imperfect guarantors of others rights. Even more so when they deny that they exist. The 20th century provides ample evidence of this.

    The acts done in the name of God pale in comparison to what we are all capable of apart from Him.
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  17. #97  
    Give it up you guys. Face it, it's the Muslim way, or no way. If you don't accept this, be prepared to have your head lopped off.

    It's obvious all you'll get is excuse after excuse...

    Mormons would be infants in comparison. But when they come knocking on my door, and I refuse to listen to them, I don't worry they'll come back and SAW MY FRIGGIN' HEAD OFF!!!!!! Oh wait, give them a thousand more years, and then let the beheadings begin.

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  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Give it up you guys. Face it, it's the Muslim way, or no way. If you don't accept this, be prepared to have your head lopped off.

    It's obvious all you'll get is excuse after excuse...

    Mormons would be infants in comparison. But when they come knocking on my door, and I refuse to listen to them, I don't worry they'll come back and SAW MY FRIGGIN' HEAD OFF!!!!!! Oh wait, give them a thousand more years, and then let the beheadings begin.

    John Smith is Great!!
    Man I could agree with you more...that's why it's so important to keep our right to bare arms ammendment intact! 1911sforever...you with me on that?!
    Last edited by RicoM; 02/06/2006 at 12:24 PM.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I could not disagree with that more. There are some morals that are universally true. The UN (which is as close as we get to a place where peoples can gather to speak as one) recognizes universal human rights.
    Then why don't the US? Interesting question, isn't it? Why kidnap people, hold them in a lawless environment, without trial for years? Why not in fact recognize universal human rights?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    I find this quote from Wikipedia disturbing...

    As most people know....wikipedia has a feature that allows it's contents to be changed by anybody. And this contradicts itself....first it says that he was married to 12 wives. And a total of 9 or 10 were alive at the time of his death. Then a line says that he only had a total of 4 wives at a time (which is by islamic law?). I wonder which one is correct and which line has been "added" to help their viewpoint?
    Get it straight from the horse's mouth. go to Islamtomorrow.com/muhammed/
    this is what we believe.



    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    I disagree. If you are extremely intolerant to other religions (i.e. DEATH IS INVOLVED), this does a GREAT deal to force a region into a single religion. You're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise.
    Sorry mate. I have not killed anyone nor do I have any intention to do so. Granted, there are alot rallied up with extreemist ideals (mostly shiiets muslims), but that is not part of Islam whatsoever. That is not in the Quran nor in common sense. Think of these groups as very powerful KKK eor example. I don't think however that some governments are doing enough to control the spread of extreem attitude. But bottom line, no matter what thoes prone to violence say, that is definatly not part of the religion. Read about it and make up your own mind, don't take my word for it please.

    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Only partially correct. All three teach about the same ONE God. Islam has VERY different principals...going straight to their prophet who did spread his belief through war instead of Jesus that spread the gospel through peaceful means.
    Only partially correct. While Muslims did use force to make countries join them, this is a secondary approach. History is filled with peace & reason to preach. Introducing islam to a new country was always preceeded with a letter of invite, explaining the religion. should it be refused then war is waged, however, no killing or plundering was permitted. Trees were not to be harmed. Children, women, elderly & un-armed men were not harmed also. They were only allowed to fight thoes who fight them bearing arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Are you saying that the Catholic Church has never been put in the position of being insulted? A google search would give pages of insults if you tried. And what about the SNL music with Sinead O'Conner who ripped up a picture of the Pope on the air. This seems a "bit" insulting to the Catholic Religion. I wonder what would of happened if she ripped apart a picture of Mohammad or the top Islamic Cleric.
    Oh no, I was talking about the normal jesus depictions you find or christmas cards for example. the pictures you describe will be insaulting even to me. Jesus is revered highly in Islam and we do beleive he will rise again & fight the anti-chriest. I am surprised and disappointed that the church did not have a firmer stand against this.
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