Page 44 of 46 FirstFirst ... 343940414243444546 LastLast
Results 861 to 880 of 914
  1. cardio's Avatar
    Posts
    779 Posts
    Global Posts
    787 Global Posts
    #861  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Like Europe for example. You cant have rules for some and different rules for others. Its not fair.

    Surur
    Fair enough. You kill an innocent civilian you are considered a murder, criminal, and deplorable. No excuse of religion, supposed occupation of homeland, or the cartoon pissed me off allowed.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  2. #862  
    Of course, I'm of the opition reasonable people can disagree about the Death Penalty. But we can all agree that its nothing like genocide and therefore a comparison between the US and Sudaan is ridiculous.
  3. #863  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Of course, I'm of the opition reasonable people can disagree about the Death Penalty. But we can all agree that its nothing like genocide and therefore a comparison between the US and Sudaan is ridiculous.
    I dont think anyone can argue that, but on the ladder of human rights, with Sudan around the bottom, America would not be at the top, but below many European countries.

    Surur
  4. #864  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I dont think anyone can argue that, but on the ladder of human rights, with Sudan around the bottom, America would not be at the top, but below many European countries.

    Surur

    I guess that depends on if you base "human rights" on the rights of the victims or the rights of the perpetrators.
  5. #865  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    You set the bar pretty low.
    Well, I must say, not being from Toledo, that was news to me. It doesn't really change anything, though. You're talking a seven month stretch where a couple dozen guys (allegedly) went wild. Not common practice. Certainly no Americans would support such tactics by burning embassies or holding violent demonstrations (or peaceful ones, either) - unlike certain other people I might mention.
    Yes, great compensation for stealing their continent and killing of 90% of their race.
    Perhaps - it beats the hell out of beheading, though.

    Why did the land "belong" to the Native Americans? They didn't have a problem killing each other and "stealing" the victim's land well before white men arrived. Does Spain "belong" to the Basques?
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...
  6. #866  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Well, I must say, not being from Toledo, that was news to me. It doesn't really change anything, though. You're talking a seven month stretch where a couple dozen guys (allegedly) went wild. Not common practice. Certainly no Americans would support such tactics by burning embassies or holding violent demonstrations (or peaceful ones, either) - unlike certain other people I might mention.Perhaps - it beats the hell out of beheading, though.
    Did you even read the whole article? They make a big point of the activities just being the tip of the iceberg.

    Face it, humans are brutal, and Americans no less than anyone else. You must have swallowed the myth of American Exceptionalism hook, line and sinker.

    Why did the land "belong" to the Native Americans? They didn't have a problem killing each other and "stealing" the victim's land well before white men arrived. Does Spain "belong" to the Basques?
    Genocide is different, and worse, than murder. Its not just killing a person, but a race. Thats why its a crime against humanity. That you have no problem with the Native American Genocide, while actually having Native American genes, indicate how successful the brainwashing system is in America. Maybe you need to speak to your elders, who may hold different views to you.

    Any
  7. #867  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I guess that depends on if you base "human rights" on the rights of the victims or the rights of the perpetrators.
    Indeed. The end goal of the justice system is actually is justice, no? Is justice served if the man who rapes and murders someone is kept alive, and is well fed and educated for the rest of his life while his victim molders in the grave? Or is justice done if the rest of the world is no longer soiled by the criminal's continued existence?

    Both sides of the capital punishment have valid arguments - I would not say the European stance is morally superior.

    Considering how American society treats ethnic minorities (compared to Europe - the recent rioting in Europe likely has just as much to do with this frustration as with cartoons), I'd say on balance we do a better job in the human rights department.

    I believe we have more enumerated civil rights than Europeans. I went to university in Germany for a while and had lots of these BS sessions - it surprised me to learn that in Germany at least, one has relatively few rights equivalent to our 4th amendment rights. The police have much more power to arrest and search without warrants, for example.

    If there is a "ladder" of human rights, it is undeniable that the West is on top (in whatever order you wish) and most (all?) Islamic countries are very much farther down.
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...
  8. #868  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    - it beats the hell out of beheading, though.
    Another part of his testimony, however, became nearly as famous, particularly in veterans circles, when he recounted what he had heard from the 150 veterans in Detroit.

    He told the senators the soldiers admitted they had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."
    His testimony became a flash point in the debate over the Vietnam War.

    Anti-war activists cheered his speech, saying it highlighted to a national audience just how widespread atrocities had become in the war. But some veterans, including some of Mr. Kerry’s former crew members, were outraged at what they considered a blanket accusation that atrocities were commonplace in Vietnam.

    That debate continues to this day.
    Anybody’s guess


    Just one day after the end of the Winter Soldier Hearings, on a Kentucky army base, a sergeant told Army investigators about a rumor of a member of an elite paratrooper unit who had beheaded a Vietnamese baby four years earlier.

    That statement would launch the longest war crimes investigation of the Vietnam War, substantiate the longest-known series of atrocities by a battle unit in Vietnam, and lead to a case that would be concealed from the public for 36 years.

    The case was revealed in an October series in The Blade - Buried Secrets, Brutal Truths - which documented how an Army platoon called Tiger Force went on a seven-month rampage in the Central Highlands of Vietnam in 1967, killing scores of unarmed men, women, and children.

    The series sparked another chapter in the long debate about the level of atrocities in Vietnam.

    In response to the revelations about Tiger Force war crimes, the man who helped create the unit, retired Col. David Hackworth, told the New York Times late last year that "Vietnam was an atrocity from the get-go."
    http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...plate=printart

    I hope you leave this thread with a lower opinion of your country than you entered, as you seem to hold it in unreasonably high regard. You will only be disappointed.

    Surur
  9. #869  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Indeed. The end goal of the justice system is actually is justice, no? Is justice served if the man who rapes and murders someone is kept alive, and is well fed and educated for the rest of his life while his victim molders in the grave? Or is justice done if the rest of the world is no longer soiled by the criminal's continued existence?

    Both sides of the capital punishment have valid arguments - I would not say the European stance is morally superior.

    Considering how American society treats ethnic minorities (compared to Europe - the recent rioting in Europe likely has just as much to do with this frustration as with cartoons), I'd say on balance we do a better job in the human rights department.

    I believe we have more enumerated civil rights than Europeans. I went to university in Germany for a while and had lots of these BS sessions - it surprised me to learn that in Germany at least, one has relatively few rights equivalent to our 4th amendment rights. The police have much more power to arrest and search without warrants, for example.

    If there is a "ladder" of human rights, it is undeniable that the West is on top (in whatever order you wish) and most (all?) Islamic countries are very much farther down.
    You bring up a good point. Do all human rights have to do with the right to be alive? To be fed? The have healthcare? What about the right to be left alone? The right to speak my mind about anything without government interference? The right to have property? And so on. It seems the European model is the right to a government babysitter that will make sure all of your basic needs are met.
  10. #870  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...plate=printart

    I hope you leave this thread with a lower opinion of your country than you entered, as you seem to hold it in unreasonably high regard. You will only be disappointed.

    Surur
    He also told Senators he fought in Cambodia.
  11. #871  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...plate=printart

    I hope you leave this thread with a lower opinion of your country than you entered, as you seem to hold it in unreasonably high regard. You will only be disappointed.

    Surur
    Uh, I was talking about beheading the Indians, but if you need to be misleading to make your point, so be it. Your cite was full of the words "rumor" and "allege".

    Sorry to disappoint you. The actions of a few do not stain an entire country's honor. I'm also sorry you feel the need to try and tear others down to justify atrocities you support today. But hey, if it let's you sleep better...
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...
  12. #872  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Uh, I was talking about beheading the Indians, but if you need to be misleading to make your point, so be it. Your cite was full of the words "rumor" and "allege".

    Sorry to disappoint you. The actions of a few do not stain an entire country's honor. I'm also sorry you feel the need to try and tear others down to justify atrocities you support today. But hey, if it let's you sleep better...
    Dont you understand the word substantiate? Now suddenly 30 years is ancient history? Things are so different now? Well, guess what, 911 is history. Lets just forget it also. The actions of a few do not stain an entire religion's honor.

    BTW: Are you really going to insist no Native Americans were beheaded? You must know you must be wrong.

    Surur
  13. #873  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Did you even read the whole article? They make a big point of the activities just being the tip of the iceberg.
    Let me know when there's actual proof. Yes, I did read it.
    Face it, humans are brutal, and Americans no less than anyone else.
    No kidding. Our system does a better job of restraining that inherent human tendency, though. That's been my point - not that we're better human beings.
    Genocide is different, and worse, than murder. Its not just killing a person, but a race. Thats why its a crime against humanity. That you have no problem with the Native American Genocide, while actually having Native American genes, indicate how successful the brainwashing system is in America. Maybe you need to speak to your elders, who may hold different views to you.
    Maybe you should stick to things you actually know something about.

    Even if I accept your view - what the hell can be done about it now? Blood feuds? Killing without end? Why then we'd be just like the Mid-East.
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...
  14. #874  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...plate=printart

    I hope you leave this thread with a lower opinion of your country than you entered, as you seem to hold it in unreasonably high regard. You will only be disappointed.

    Surur
    "I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."

    However seared he was, Kerry's spokesmen now say his memory was faulty. When the Swift boat veterans who oppose Kerry presented statements from his commanders and members of his unit denying that his boat entered Cambodia, none of Kerry's shipmates came forward, as they had on other issues, to corroborate his account. Two weeks ago Kerry's spokesmen began to backtrack. First, one campaign aide explained that Kerry had patrolled the Mekong Delta somewhere "between" Cambodia and Vietnam. But there is no between; there is a border. Then another spokesman told reporters that Kerry had been "near Cambodia." But the point of Kerry's 1986 speech was that he personally had taken part in a secret and illegal war in a neutral country. That was only true if he was "in Cambodia," as he had often said he was. If he was merely "near," then his deliberate misstatement falsified the entire speech.

    Next, the campaign leaked a new version through the medium of historian Douglas Brinkley, author of "Tour of Duty," a laudatory book on Kerry's military service. Last week Brinkley told the London Telegraph that while Kerry had been 50 miles from the border on Christmas, he "went into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions." Oddly, though, while Brinkley devotes nearly 100 pages of his book to Kerry's activities that January and February, pinpointing the locations of various battles and often placing Kerry near Cambodia, he nowhere mentions Kerry's crossing into Cambodia, an inconceivable omission if it were true.

    Now a new official statement from the campaign undercuts Brinkley. It offers a minimal (thus harder to impeach) claim: that Kerry "on one occasion crossed into Cambodia," on an unspecified date. But at least two of the shipmates who are supporting Kerry's campaign (and one who is not) deny their boat ever crossed the border, and their testimony on this score is corroborated by Kerry's own journal, kept while on duty. One passage reproduced in Brinkley's book says: "The banks of the [Rach Giang Thanh River] whistled by as we churned out mile after mile at full speed. On my left were occasional open fields that allowed us a clear view into Cambodia. At some points, the border was only fifty yards away and it then would meander out to several hundred or even as much as a thousand yards away, always making one wonder what lay on the other side." His curiosity was never satisfied, because this entry was from Kerry's final mission.

    After his discharge, Kerry became the leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). Once, he presented to Congress the accounts by his VVAW comrades of having "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires . . . to human genitals . . . razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan . . . poisoned foodstocks." Later it was shown that many of the stories on which Kerry based this testimony were false, some told by impostors who had stolen the identities of real GIs, but Kerry himself was not implicated in the fraud. And his own over-the-top generalization that such "crimes [were] committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command" could be charged up to youthfulness and the fevers of the times.

    But Kerry has repeated his Cambodia tale throughout his adult life. He has claimed that the epiphany he had that Christmas of 1968 was about truthfulness. "One of the things that most struck me about Vietnam was how people were lied to," he explained in a subsequent interview. If -- as seems almost surely the case -- Kerry himself has lied about what he did in Vietnam, and has done so not merely to spice his biography but to influence national policy, then he is surely not the kind of man we want as our president.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug23.html

    (emphasis mine)
  15. #875  
    I cant comment on the credibility of the people who govern you, but the Tiger Force story, and details attached, seems pretty corroborated. The investigator even won a Pulitzer prize, and the investigations in their atrocities were re-opened in 2004.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force_(commandos)

    Surur
  16. #876  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I cant comment on the credibility of the people who govern you, but the Tiger Force story, and details attached, seems pretty corroborated. The investigator even won a Pulitzer prize, and the investigations in their atrocities were re-opened in 2004.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force_(commandos)

    Surur

    He doesn't govern over me, and hopefully he never will. But if we're comparing "beheading" stories, I suppose you need to provide videos. I mean, we all have access to videos of Muslims beheading people.
  17. #877  
    Fun and games with the Indians.

    Finally, in January 1863 members of mountain man Joseph Walker's party of gold seekers lured the old chief into the deserted mining camp of Pinos Altos to talk peace. Instead, they seized him and delivered him to General Joseph R. West, who had orders from Carleton to "punish the Gila Apaches, under that notorious robber, Mangus Colorado." That evening, West placed Mangas Coloradas under the guard of two soldiers. According to Daniel Ellis Conner, a member of the Walker party, "About 9 o'clock I noticed that the soldiers were doing something to Mangas, but quit when I returned to the fire and stopped to get warm. Watchmg them from my beat in the outer darkness, I discovered that they were heating their bayonets and burning Mangas's feet and legs. This they continued to do [until] Mangas rose upon his left elbow, angrily protesting that he was no child to be played with. Thereupon the two soldiers, without removing their bayonets from their Minie muskets each quickly fired into the chief, following with two shots each from their navy six-shooters. Mangas fell back into the same position . . . and never moved."


    The Struggle for the Colorado River

    Tales of Apache cruelty spread like smallpox on the frontier, but the Apaches never murdered a high-ranking U.S. officer during a peace negotiation. The savagery did not end with the Apache chief's death. First the soldiers scalped Mangas Coloradas with an "Arkansas toothpick," a Bowie knife. Then they cut off his head and boiled it in a pot so they could send his skull to a phrenologist, who determined that it was larger than Daniel Webster's. The man who had been hailed by Wingfield as "the Master Spirit amongst the Apaches" became a "robber" to be killed and a medical curiosity to be studied. The desecration of his corpse outraged the Chiricahuas as much as his betrayal and murder. Mangas Coloradas's revenge was a series of Chiricahua war chiefs— Cochise, Victorio, Juh—who carried on his fight for the next twenty-three years.
    It sure sucks to have been a Native American 150 years ago. At least now when you get pickled its due to alcoholism.

    Surur
  18. #878  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    He doesn't govern over me, and hopefully he never will. But if we're comparing "beheading" stories, I suppose you need to provide videos. I mean, we all have access to videos of Muslims beheading people.
    You mean your congress and senate does not play any role in governing the country? What happened to representative democracy?

    Surur
  19. #879  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Fun and games with the Indians.



    It sure sucks to have been a Native American 150 years ago.
    150 years ago...

    At least now when you get pickled its due to alcoholism.
    And an ethnic slur to boot! You're quite a piece of work.
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...
  20. #880  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Fun and games with the Indians.



    It sure sucks to have been a Native American 150 years ago. At least now when you get pickled its due to alcoholism.

    Surur
    Mangas Coloradas (mäng`gäs kōlōrä`thäs) [Span.,=red sleeves], c.1797–1863, chief of the Mimbrenos group of Apache of SW New Mexico. Many of the Mimbrenos were massacred by trappers in 1837 as a result of the bounty for Apache scalps offered by the Mexican authorities. Mangas Coloradas, a natural leader because of his intelligence and size (unusually tall for an Apache, he was over 6 ft/180 cm), united the tribes, led them in a successful war of revenge, and cleared the area of settlers. When the Americans took possession of New Mexico in 1846, he pledged friendship to these conquerors of his Mexican enemies, but peace ended as the gold rush began. In 1851 a series of incidents culminated in hostilities when Mangas Coloradas suffered a humiliating flogging at the hands of some miners. Leading his warriors, he waged continuous warfare until he was finally captured and killed by Union soldiers in 1863. The name sometimes appears erroneously as Magnus Colorado.
    http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Mangus+Coloradas

    You should probably tell the whole story.

Posting Permissions