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  1.    #61  
    We're in the year 2006 and Christianity isn't causing worldwide panic, murder and mayhem today, Muslims are.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If you were more religious you would be more offended. 500 years ago you could also be killed for blasphamy by the vatican. You do not appear to understand the younger religion is more fundamentalist, just like Christianity has been in the past.

    Surur
  2.    #62  
    Your arguments would be valid if you were living in the dark days of Christianity, but you are not. Those people have all died and the religion as a whole is not performing the acts of several hundred years ago. Islam is being referenced for murdering people. Any religion that does this is a religion of evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    There is no way of knowing that, as they environment and communication was not the same. We do however know how the Church at the time dealt with blasphemy.

    Regarding the settlement of America, maybe you should be asking the native americans how they feel about that process. A similar process occured in Australia.

    When it comes down to it, the moral of the story is "might makes right".

    Surur
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    First, what we do know is that everyone claims this was Islam's Golden Age--you know, they rescued Aristotle and invented algebra and everyone lived in peace and harmony (as long as they paid the taxes). And we do know that Wahhabism was a response to "liberalism" in Islam. Thus, it seems as though your theory about a young religion being more violent is faulty since Islam appears to have moved in a decidedly more violent direction.

    Second, I'm not asking any native Americans, I'm asking you. Do we "Europeans" have a right to be here?
    I did not say more violent, I mean more fundamentalist, more orthodox. As religions age they wane. Look at Christianity in Europe and America. Look at Islam in the more liberal Arabic countries, like Turkey and Egypt. In 100 years time they will be a lot more laid back, thats almost certain.

    Regarding America, if you asking me who I feel has a greater claim to America, the people who lived there for 1000's of years, vs the new comers from 200-300 years ago, I will have to say the Native Americans. I hope thats not supposed to be controversial. And it does not mean I, who have no American history at all, have ANY claim to American land.

    Surur
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Your arguments would be valid if you were living in the dark days of Christianity, but you are not. Those people have all died and the religion as a whole is not performing the acts of several hundred years ago. Islam is being referenced for murdering people. Any religion that does this is a religion of evil.
    That does not make any sense at all. Was Christianity a religion of evil then, and not now?

    Anyway, I believe all the major religions are equally evil, but for many more reasons than the atrocities committed in their name. There is no "right" or "better" religion.

    Surur
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    We're in the year 2006 and Christianity isn't causing worldwide panic, murder and mayhem today, Muslims are.
    BTW, you do know its 1426 by the Muslim Calender, dont you?

    Surur
  6. #66  
    Surur.....so let me try to understand....Muhammad had his first visitation by an Angel while meditating in 610 in a cave near Mecca . Since Islam is 1,436 years YOUNG compared to Christianity being only around 1,976 years OLD....they have an excuse to kill anyone who disagrees with them?

    It seems that this is the crux of your argument.

    If we even take your argument at face value and say....Islam is still only a young pup and has not yet learned to respect the lives of innocent civilians in the last 1,436 years and that they need the next 500 years that Christianity has had to learn this lesson, are they then justified to kill because they have yet to learn to play nice with others?
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Surur.....so let me try to understand....Muhammad had his first visitation by an Angel while meditating in 610 in a cave near Mecca . Since Islam is 1,436 years YOUNG compared to Christianity being only around 1,976 years OLD....they have an excuse to kill anyone who disagrees with them?

    It seems that this is the crux of your argument.

    If we even take your argument at face value and say....Islam is still only a young pup and has not yet learned to respect the lives of innocent civilians in the last 1,436 years and that they need the next 500 years that Christianity has had to learn this lesson, are they then justified to kill because they have yet to learn to play nice with others?
    Not quite. Islam is still in its middle age, and has not succumbed to old age yet. When old age comes it will become decrepit, and the population held under its sway will be free to support humanist ideals vs religious dogma, just as has happened in the west.

    Simple enough?

    Surur
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    BTW, you do know its 1426 by the Muslim Calender, dont you?

    Surur
    I don't give a rats arse if this is the first year of teH Munk calendar, wanting to saw off someones head over a damn cartoon is disgusting.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Not quite. Islam is still in its middle age, and has not succumbed to old age yet. When old age comes it will become decrepit, and the population held under its sway will be free to support humanist ideals vs religious dogma, just as has happened in the west.

    Simple enough?

    Surur
    No.

    So are they held accountable for their actions against killing innocent children today for the lessons they have not learned in the last 1,400 years?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/05/2006 at 02:22 PM.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    There is no way of knowing that, as they environment and communication was not the same. We do however know how the Church at the time dealt with blasphemy.
    It does appear that there may be evidence that they were a little more open then than they are now:

    Philosophy
    Only in philosophy were Islamic scholars prevented from putting forth unorthodox ideas. Nevertheless, Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd played a major role in saving the works of Aristotle, whose ideas came to dominate the non-religious thought of the Christian and Muslim worlds. They would also absorb ideas from China, and India, adding to them tremendous knowledge from their own studies. Three speculative thinkers, al-Kindi, al-Farabi, and Avicenna, combined Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism with other ideas introduced through Islam.

    From Spain the Arabic philosophic literature was translated into Hebrew, Latin, and Ladino, contributing to the development of modern European philosophy. The Jewish philosopher Moses Maimonides, sociologist-historian Ibn Khaldun, Carthage citizen Constantine the African who translated Greek medical texts and Al-Khwarzimi's collation of mathematical techniques were important figures of the Golden Age.
    Which is why some may not want to recognize the Golden Age of Islam:

    Opposing views
    Some commentators have detracted from the importance of the Golden Age going as far as to call it a myth, intended to distract attention from modern Islam. Srdja Trifkovic's book The Sword of the Prophet is highly critical of Islam in the Golden Age. It is indisputable that Islamic regimes, such as the Abbasid Caliphate of Baghdad under Harun ar-Rashid or al-Andalus were very wealthy in comparison with their neighbours, preserved a large amount of Greek philosophy, and transmitted Eastern ideas such as the concept of zero ('0') believed to have been developed in India. (See also: Arabic numerals). However, some critics argue that all this flourished in spite of Islam rather than because of it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age_of_Islam
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    No.

    So are they held accountable for their actions against killing innocent children today for the lessons they have not learned in the last 1,400 years?
    Individuals are still accountable for their actions, obviously, but whats the statute of limitation on murder? If their is none, the Christian church should be held as accountable for their atrocities at the same age. Why is the Christian church forgiven, and you want to prosecute the Islamic church now?

    Regarding the "golden age", this does not really tell us what their stand is on blasphemy, does it?

    Surur
  12. #72  
    Nice spin.... ...Who said the Christian Church is forgiven? The point is they have "repented" and changed their ways. How many Christians today broadcast world wide proclamations that they are going to kill every single man, women, and child in another country or of a different religion and call on all faithful Christians to join them in slaughtering innocent people?

    Now, how many Muslim & Islam organizations (not individual people) today are doing just that AND following through with those actions?

    Again....let's take your argument at face value. If the Christians committed murder over 500 years ago, do any of this Muslim organizations have an inherited right to blow up children eating dinner with their parents today that has not religious, nationality, or blood ancestry connection with the 500 year old murders ?
  13. #73  
    Of course not, but the flip side is, if you understand why the Christian churches did what they did then, why is it so hard to understand why Islamic institutions are behaving how they are behaving now? Understanding does not mean condoning, but if you understand you are less likely to demonize a whole religion, vs saying they are clearly barbarians and inhuman. Your ancestors would have behaved in exactly the same way.

    Surur
  14. #74  
    AGAIN...who is demonizing a WHOLE religion? It has been stated over and over again that it is a small fanatical group that acting and the the main stream is not denouncing.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    AGAIN...who is demonizing a WHOLE religion? It has been stated over and over again that it is a small fanatical group that acting and the the main stream is not denouncing.
    You are complaining that the fanatics are not being denounced. The point is, at this stage of the religion, they would not be. Who denounced the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem which hunts. In fact, people participated.

    My point is, arnt you expecting a bit too much from Islam at this point. Maybe give it another 100 years of Spongebob Squarepants morality plays?

    Surur
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    My point is, arnt you expecting a bit too much from Islam at this point. Maybe give it another 100 years of Spongebob Squarepants morality plays?

    Surur
    I generally try to stay out of these discussions, but.....are you freakin' kidding me???

    You're saying that because it's a younger religion, their actions should be expected....and tolerated. Is that right?

    We are expecting too much of them to not cut people's heads off over a cartoon? Let me say that again....it should be "understandable" that they are cutting people's heads off....CUTTING THEIR HEADS OFF...over a cartoon.
    By your logic, I should be able to form a new religion....let's call it DECAPITATIONISM...and because my new religion has not had the benefit of nearly 2000 years of experience, it's ok for me to slaughter people at will? And you will say...."well, it's still a young religion, after a couple thousand years, he'll realize that's bad"?

    All I can say is wow.
    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    - Albert Einstein
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraOrdinaryJo
    By your logic, I should be able to form a new religion....let's call it DECAPITATIONISM...and because my new religion has not had the benefit of nearly 2000 years of experience, it's ok for me to slaughter people at will? And you will say...."well, it's still a young religion, after a couple thousand years, he'll realize that's bad"?

    All I can say is wow.
    No. Only if you're Muslim is this forgiven and excused to the ends of the Earth.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  18. #78  
    Do yopu guys realize the scale of atrocities commited in the name of christianity? Try these numbers from a website I googled.
    http://www.geocities.com/iconoclastes.geo/victims.html

    1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

    A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.

    What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
    "The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
    Or, on another occasion:
    "The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
    The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]

    17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
    17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]

    Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
    The Albigensians (Cathars) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
    Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (the greatest single mass murderer prior to the Nazi era) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Number of victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbors and friends) estimated between 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
    Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
    Subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
    After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
    Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]

    Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, allegedly was responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]

    In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
    There's a whole lot more, but reading it all makes me feel sick. You guys are being way "holier than thou".

    Its obviously the gory beheadings that are getting to you, but you dont worry about scalping, being torn limb from limb on the rack, putting heads on spikes, burning to death etc etc

    Let me re-iterate again - the only reason Christians arnt behaving the same way right now, is because of the rise of secularism. You are all "bad" Christians. Good Christians would not tolerate what you are tolerating in your society right now. 300 years ago you did not. Now Christianity is weak, and you do. The same will happen to Islam. Such is life.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 02/05/2006 at 06:05 PM.
  19. #79  
    Well that settles that. We need to let them catch up to the Christians!

    Jihad away mother****ers!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  20. #80  
    Good find surur.

    Human are evil all over the world, in every nation, of every race, and in every religion. It poor appeal to emotion to blame a group off the action of any part of that group. "Who here took any philosphy classes" it a fallacy to judge any over person, or any other people based off the actions of another.

    If that the case let all be, racist, and facist.

    The crimianl, and terrorist are to be blamed, not their group.

    Nobody goes around saying, Christian extremist bombing of Okalahoma city builder. Christian extremet david coress complex in texas. Christian killings in america "whick america leads the world in murders per year". As a matter of fact more america were murdered, then people who died in the twin towers. In 1990 something over 11,000 murders in one year alone in America. But no one claim this is because of christianity. It becuase some people are evil.

    Imagine this, Cathloic extremest nazi germany. Cristian fundalmentalist American Slavery lol.

    You are a America "nationalism", in a majority christian nation "facism", and majority white '"racism", it ok for you to turn a blind eye on people similiar to you and only judge there action, and not a group. But anyone in a different group, let the stereotyping begin.

    I hope we as a nation learn from our past mistake, and not go down this road again.
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