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  1. #741  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If you have read all the documents I have quoted it should be very clear Israel has no right to exist at all. They are a terrorist state that won their land by aggression, not peaceful means (and this is in modern times).

    Only 20% of Israelites are born there. The rest can go back to where they came from, and return the land to those they stole it from, who now live outside its borders in refugee camps.

    Surur
    Are there any other countries you think don't have a right to exist?

    There are parts of Poland that are ethnically and historically German. Should Poland be allowed to exist as it is now, or should the Poles (or ethnic Germans) who live in these areas be forced to move? Of course the world has already gone down that path once before with disasterous results.

    Who is it again that has not learned anything from history?


    I'll ask again - since Israel is not going to simply disolve itself - How many Israelis would have to die before you would shed a tear? The entire population?
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  2. #742  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Insertion, you are not paying attention. I showed that Israel is being supported by America. If America stopped "meddling" the region would solve their Israeli problem themselves.

    Maybe if America stopped Veto-ing of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel the world community could so something about it also?

    Surur
    I am paying attention. When I said meddling in Israel, I meant PLO and Islamic extremists.

    If the US were to meddle in Israel with it's military, as in invade Israel and hand the land over to the Palestineans, you'd be all for it. Wouldn't be so meddlesome then, would it?
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  3. #743  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Insertion, you are not paying attention. I showed that Israel is being supported by America. If America stopped "meddling" the region would solve their Israeli problem themselves.
    The "Israeli problem"? Is that anything like the Jewish Question?

    We "meddle" by supporting the first free-market democracy in the entire Middle East (further "meddling" by us is now creating the second - Iraq). Perhaps if we didn't "meddle" so much, the land that is Israel would be as free and prosperous as Syria or Yemen.

    Frankly, the Middle East could use more of our "meddling".
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  4. #744  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I am paying attention. When I said meddling in Israel, I meant PLO and Islamic extremists.
    Again, if you had read the material provided, you would see that these people, more than most, have every right to fight for their territory by any means possible. I dont see anyone giving them Apache Helicopters.

    If the US were to meddle in Israel with it's military, as in invade Israel and hand the land over to the Palestineans, you'd be all for it. Wouldn't be so meddlesome then, would it?
    I would, but in that case it would be clearly just and fair. Hell, Israel even has WMD! If America stopped vetoing the security council they would even have full UN approval.

    Surur
  5. #745  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    The "Israeli problem"? Is that anything like the Jewish Question?

    We "meddle" by supporting the first free-market democracy in the entire Middle East (further "meddling" by us is now creating the second - Iraq). Perhaps if we didn't "meddle" so much, the land that is Israel would be as free and prosperous as Syria or Yemen.

    Frankly, the Middle East could use more of our "meddling".
    If only Surur could bring back Reinhard Heydrich.
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  6. #746  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    The "Israeli problem"? Is that anything like the Jewish Question?

    We "meddle" by supporting the first free-market democracy in the entire Middle East (further "meddling" by us is now creating the second - Iraq). Perhaps if we didn't "meddle" so much, the land that is Israel would be as free and prosperous as Syria or Yemen.

    Frankly, the Middle East could use more of our "meddling".
    And America has a Divine right to do this, no matter the human cost? You clearly support the PNAC.

    Surur
  7. #747  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    If only Surur could bring back Reinhard Heydrich.
    Its actually very ironic that the Jewish people, so persecuted through the ages, would be persecuting others so much now. Its the classical abused becoming the abuser.

    Surur
  8. #748  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If you have read all the documents I have quoted it should be very clear Israel has no right to exist at all. They are a terrorist state that won their land by aggression, not peaceful means (and this is in modern times).

    Unlike the Arabs who got the land by peaceful means, right? Or the Ottomans who just sort of shook hands and agreed to take over the land. Or, for that matter, even the British who peacefully agreed with the Turks that Palestine would be better under British control.

    The Jews are, by no means, completely without blood in their hands when it comes to the creation of Israel. But tell me, what people are sitting on what patch of land without the benefits gained by war? And some people would say if it wasn't for the Jews, Israel would be Palestine right now. But I think its more correct to say if it wasn't for the Jews, Palestine would be under the control of one tribe until it got taken over by the next tribe, and so on, and so on. The Jews just happen to be a tribe that nobody seems to like very much. But that there is a powerful, stabilizing, and relatively democratic force in the region should be seen by the world at large as a good thing.

    As for the Palestinian refugees, I don't see why the whole region can't come together and find a place for all of them. Its not so much a disgrace to Israel that there are Palestinains living in refugee camps in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon as it is a disgrace to Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Why, after all this time, haven't they been assimilated into these countries? They have the same primary religion, the same culture, why are the Palestinians persona non grata everywhere they go?

    This is more hypocrisy that I can't stand. Everyone in the Arab world is yelling about the poor Palestinians. But I've personally seen how Palestinians are regarded in other Arab states and its not good. Hypocrisy doth abound.
  9. #749  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    And America has a Divine right to do this, no matter the human cost? You clearly support the PNAC.

    Surur
    I wasn't aware the PNAC advocated US intervention without regard to cost. You must have access to inside info not accessible to normal members.
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  10. #750  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    The Jews are, by no means, completely without blood in their hands when it comes to the creation of Israel. But tell me, what people are sitting on what patch of land without the benefits gained by war? And some people would say if it wasn't for the Jews, Israel would be Palestine right now. But I think its more correct to say if it wasn't for the Jews, Palestine would be under the control of one tribe until it got taken over by the next tribe, and so on, and so on.
    But they would still be in their homes, and not displaced. They may have even had their own independent country, as has happened to other tribes, like e.g. Yemen.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    The Jews just happen to be a tribe that nobody seems to like very much. But that there is a powerful, stabilizing, and relatively democratic force in the region should be seen by the world at large as a good thing.
    I think you mistyped destabilizing, and please dont deny it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    As for the Palestinian refugees, I don't see why the whole region can't come together and find a place for all of them. Its not so much a disgrace to Israel that there are Palestinains living in refugee camps in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon as it is a disgrace to Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Why, after all this time, haven't they been assimilated into these countries? They have the same primary religion, the same culture, why are the Palestinians persona non grata everywhere they go?
    The Palestinians want their own land back. Why should this injustice be made to disappear by spiriting the people away. You dont think in 60 years people could not have moved to other areas if they wanted to? They are waiting to go back to their own homes, and the homes of their fathers.

    Surur
  11. #751  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Its actually very ironic that the Jewish people, so persecuted through the ages, would be persecuting others so much now. Its the classical abused becoming the abuser.

    Surur
    Persecuting? By agreeing to Palestinian statehood? Were their roles reversed, does anyone believe for a minute a democratic Palestine would even allow Jewish statehood to cross their minds? Were their roles reversed does anyone think for a minute there'd be a democratic Palestine at all?

    When Israel opens up mysterious "delousing centers " where Arabs go in but don't come out - then we can talk about persecution on equal terms.
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  12. #752  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Persecuting? By agreeing to Palestinian statehood? Were their roles reversed, does anyone believe for a minute a democratic Palestine would even allow Jewish statehood to cross their minds? Were their roles reversed does anyone think for a minute there'd be a democratic Palestine at all?
    The main reason for this, and for the wall of shame is to remove Arabs from Israel, for demographic reasons.

    Ironically, in the early days of the Jewish aliyah, the situation WAS reversed, and until the Jews started using dirty tactics they lived peacefully with their Palestinian neighbors.

    Surur
  13. #753  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    When Israel opens up mysterious "delousing centers " where Arabs go in but don't come out - then we can talk about persecution on equal terms.
    'Our Country Is Finished'
    "I am very concerned. If this is the process, and the problem is not dealt with, our country is finished in 17 years, and there will be a collapse," he said. At present, according to Ha'aretz newspaper, Jews are in a slight majority, with 50.5 percent of the population.

    The birth rate among Israelís Arabs is creating pressure on the government to take exraordinary measures. Brian Whitaker of Britainís Guardian reports that talk of the "problem" caused by Arab population growth has been mainly confined to Israel's far right, though, according to the Egyptian newspaper, al-Ahram Weekly, a number of Israeli strategic planners, former army generals and scholars met privately in Hertzlya a few months ago to discuss "adequate solutions for dealing with the demographic threat."

    Solutions being proposed, the Guardian writes, "include birth control, forced emigration [through economic pressure] and population 'transfer' - a new euphemism for what in the Balkans became known as "ethnic cleansing."

    'Racism'

    Isam Makhoul, an Arab member of Knesset (parliament), said: "Here, in a state that claims to be the only democracy in the Middle East, we see dignified lawmakers candidly discussing ways and means to curb the birth rate of a given segment of society on the grounds that they don't have the right race and religion. It's racism. It's disgusting."
    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...8/181802.shtml

    Wont be long now...

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 02/12/2006 at 02:51 PM.
  14. #754  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    The main reason for this, and for the wall of shame is to remove Arabs from Israel, for demographic reasons.
    Riiiiight... and young Arabs wearing Semtex belts blowing up buses and nightclubs full of innocent people had nothing to do with it. With each post you continue to lose credibility.
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  15. #755  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    The birth rate among Israelís Arabs is creating pressure on the government to take exraordinary measures. Brian Whitaker of Britainís Guardian reports that talk of the "problem" caused by Arab population growth has been mainly confined to Israel's far right, though, according to the Egyptian newspaper, al-Ahram Weekly, a number of Israeli strategic planners, former army generals and scholars met privately in Hertzlya a few months ago to discuss "adequate solutions for dealing with the demographic threat."
    Could you at least try quoting from credible sources???

    For those interested here's a taste of the credibility of the al-Ahram newspaper which is the sole source of your quoted story.

    At any rate, the Israelis are no closer to commiting genocide than when we started this conversation.
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  16. #756  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    But they would still be in their homes, and not displaced. They may have even had their own independent country, as has happened to other tribes, like e.g. Yemen.
    Oh, you want to bring up Yemen? What has happened to Yemeni Jews? Even before the immigration? Yes, they were deprived of positions in government; they were forced to live in cordoned off areas of the towns or in isolated mountain villages; there were forced conversions, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I think you mistyped destabilizing, and please dont deny it.
    Destabilized from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    The Palestinians want their own land back. Why should this injustice be made to disappear by spiriting the people away. You dont think in 60 years people could not have moved to other areas if they wanted to? They are waiting to go back to their own homes, and the homes of their fathers.
    Oh please. So they're living in squalor just because they're waiting for their own land back? If that is the case then they don't get much sympathy from me. I wouldn't stay in a refugee camp voluntarily if there was work and a place for me in another country. One can still fight for the right to return to one's own homeland without having to live in a refugee camp. I think there's another reason you're avoiding.
  17. #757  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Could you at least try quoting from credible sources???

    For those interested here's a taste of the credibility of the al-Ahram newspaper which is the sole source of your quoted story.

    At any rate, the Israelis are no closer to commiting genocide than when we started this conversation.
    Would it kill you to check the article before questioning the credibility?

    Israel 'faces existential crisis'

    A professor's claim that new demographic trends could lead to Israel's collapse are based on questionable assumptions, writes Brian Whitaker

    Brian Whitaker
    Guardian Unlimited

    Monday July 23, 2001


    Israel is facing an "existential crisis" and could "collapse" in less than 20 years, a university professor claimed last week.

    Arnon Sofer of Haifa university told the Knesset foreign affairs and defence committee that by 2020, Jews will account for only 42% of the total population in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.

    Alongside a Jewish population of 6.4m, there will be 3m Arabs and non-Jews inside Israel's 1967 boundaries, plus 3.3m Palestinians in the West Bank and 2.5m in Gaza, he predicted.

    "I am very concerned. If this is the process, and the problem is not dealt with, our country is finished in 17 years and there will be a collapse," he said. At present, according to Ha'aretz newspaper, Jews are in a slight majority, with 50.5% of the overall population.

    Although some Arab groups, such as Hizbullah, will no doubt be delighted by the professor's view that Israel may self-destruct in the not-too-distant future, Arab members of the Knesset are alarmed at discussion of the demographic "problem", which they see as part of a sinister trend.

    One member, Hashem Mohamed, refused to take part in "a meeting that encourages racists, rightwingers, and fascists, and which will be a red light to bridging the two nations in the country for renewed understanding and coexistence".

    Explaining his absence to the committee's chairman, he wrote: "It is clear such discussion is damaging to democratic and humanistic principles because the discussions revolve around 'demographic dangers' ... which causes many racists ... who see every child of the Arab minority in the country as 'a ticking bomb', to lose sleep."

    Another member, Isam Makhoul, said: "Here, in a state that claims to be the only democracy in the Middle East, we see dignified lawmakers candidly discussing ways and means to curb the birth rate of a given segment of society on the grounds that they don't have the right race and religion. It's racism, it's disgusting."

    What worried the Arab members particularly was that holding such a discussion in the Knesset would give respectability to a debate that has been taking place at a less official level for some time.

    Talk of the "problem" caused by Arab population growth has been mainly confined to Israel's far right, though, according to the Egyptian newspaper, al-Ahram Weekly, a number of Israeli strategic planners, former army generals and scholars met privately in Hertzlya a few months ago to discuss "adequate solutions for dealing with the demographic threat".

    "Solutions" on offer include birth control, forced emigration (through economic pressure) and population "transfer" - a new euphemism for what in the Balkans became known as "ethnic cleansing".

    These ideas might be dismissed as nasty but preposterous, were it not for the belief among many Palestinians that they are happening already. The closures in the occupied territories, for instance, are supposed to serve security purposes but their main effect in practice is to cause economic hardship. So far, there is no evidence that they have induced significant numbers of Palestinians to emigrate - though they might do so eventually.

    There is also a belief that the long-threatened military onslaught against the Palestinian Authority could be used as a cover to drive large numbers of people out of the West Bank and into Jordan - a threat which the Jordanian government is taking seriously. The Palestinians, for their part, remember the "nakba" (catastrophe) of 1948 well enough to say that they will not let it happen.

    "We will not allow them to drive us away again. The worst they would be able to do is to murder us, but we shall not leave again," Palestinian official Ahmed Abdel-Rahman said recently.

    Israeli talk of "solutions" presupposes that there is, or will be, a demographic problem to solve. But why lump together the populations of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza in the first place? Why not throw in neighbouring Egypt, too, and say that Jews are already a minority?

    Professor Sofer's calculations are meaningless unless you regard the West Bank and Gaza as part of a single entity called Israel - which most Israelis, along with the rest of the world, do not.

    Within Israel's 1967 boundaries there is a large Jewish majority. On current population trends, it is likely to remain for centuries. The population balance would only become an issue if, instead of allowing the creation of a Palestinian state, Israel were to annexe the occupied territories and then be obliged to give voting rights to the Palestinians living there.

    If the result of that was to make Hamas the largest party in the Knesset, the Israelis would have only themselves to blame. If annexation is not on the cards, talk of a "demographic threat" and the collapse of Israel is simply hysteria. The danger is that those who believe it usually favour hysterical "solutions".


    It never seems to occur to them that there are simpler and more obvious ways to allay their fear of the Palestinians - such as learning to live alongside them.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Ar...226526,00.html

    Surur
  18. #758  
    Explaining his absence to the committee's chairman, he wrote: "It is clear such discussion is damaging to democratic and humanistic principles because the discussions revolve around 'demographic dangers' ... which causes many racists ... who see every child of the Arab minority in the country as 'a ticking bomb', to lose sleep."
    Hmm, I wonder which one of the hundreds of suicide bombings in the last five years gave them this impression? I'm guessing the videos of young boys and girls with bombs strapped around their bodies taken hours before they blow up some pizza parlor don't help.
  19. #759  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Hmm, I wonder which one of the hundreds of suicide bombings in the last five years gave them this impression? I'm guessing the videos of young boys and girls with bombs strapped around their bodies taken hours before they blow up some pizza parlor don't help.
    Its not the bombs they fear, its the votes.

    Surur
  20. #760  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    1) Dunno about over there, but here it is most definitely not accepted an an excuse.
    I thought I read about it in an American case.
    One girl was raped & they were questioning her attair and attitude if she could have led him on. Can't give details though, it was some time back.

    But seriously, If you walk in NY subways with $100 bills out of your back pocket, do you expect to NOT be mugged?

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