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  1. #701  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Hoovs, the point is that Israel DOES NOT have these rules, which in 5-10 years cause problems (e.g. they will have to consider adding Arabic parties in their coalition governments) and in 20 years will mean the Jewish population will be absolutely outnumbered. Are you proposing they add them?

    PS: There is dissenting opinions that the population growth rate of the Israeli Arabs are exaggerated, and that the fundamentalist Hasidic Jews (who often have 6 children) will more than make up for the secular Jews with only 1 or 2 children. This would however cause a swing of Israel to the right, towards becoming more of a theocracy.

    Surur

    Surur,

    Maybe you're not aware how these things work. From the Declaration of Establishment:

    Thus members and representatives of the Jews of Palestine and of the Zionist movement are here assembled on the day os the termination of the British Mandate over Eretz-Yisra'el and, by virtue of our natural and historic right and on the strength of the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-YISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
    It is a Jewish state. So, no matter how many Arabs are sitting on the Knesset, the mere existence of a body called the Knesset means that Israel is a Jewish state. This will never be up for vote. So it won't really matter how many Arabs vote, they won't be able to vote on this. It would, for all intents and purposes, be akin to a vote to dissolve the state.

    Regarding this idea of the "right wing" making a theocracy, I doubt this will happen. Many of the ultra-Orthodox, such as the Satmar Hasidim, aren't all that friendly to a secular Israeli state. And they believe that only the Jewish Messiah can usher in any religious state.
  2. #702  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Where has this thread gone? Surur has managed to turn the topic from Muslim hypocrisy to American hypocrisy.
    So, back on topic: I think its pretty clear, based on the facts here, that many Islamic leaders are trying to spark a religious war. WHY?

    Is it simply the latest in a long line of religious wars intended to convert more of the world to Islam?

    Is it intended to usher in the return of Imam Mahdi?

    Or, is it as Surur would have us believe, a vendetta against the West for past injustices?

    The floor is open...
  3.    #703  
    I have no idea, it may be many Muslims simply like murdering people.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    So, back on topic: I think its pretty clear, based on the facts here, that many Islamic leaders are trying to spark a religious war. WHY?

    Is it simply the latest in a long line of religious wars intended to convert more of the world to Islam?

    Is it intended to usher in the return of Imam Mahdi?

    Or, is it as Surur would have us believe, a vendetta against the West for past injustices?

    The floor is open...
  4. #704  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    So, back on topic: I think its pretty clear, based on the facts here, that many Islamic leaders are trying to spark a religious war. WHY?

    Is it simply the latest in a long line of religious wars intended to convert more of the world to Islam?

    Is it intended to usher in the return of Imam Mahdi?

    Or, is it as Surur would have us believe, a vendetta against the West for past injustices?

    The floor is open...
    As a naive observer, but without the paranoia of the west, I would say the goals of the people with the larger agenda, is to unite the Muslim world and return to the caliphate. They probably use past injustices to mobilize people, but have another agenda.

    Surur
  5. #705  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Kidnappers to Kill Jill Carroll 'According to Islamic Law'...

    See, Muslims don't even have a choice, they HAVE to kill her since it is Islam law. Muslims are so brave to stick to their doctrine, no matter what the world may think of them.
    Dude, again, its not an Islamic law. They are F***ed up people.Want proof? Look at what they said

    "The Iraqi kidnappers of American journalist Jill Carroll have set a Feb. 26 deadline for their demands to be met or they will kill her,"

    Now if it was a LAW, wouldn't they just kill her on the spot. aha, but they didn't. They are bargening! so.. if thier demands are met and they release her, wouldn't they betray that unknown "law"? What does that law say? if you kidnap infidels, demand. And if you are not answered in 10 moons kill the infidels ?

    thats black comedy there.

    Advance, they are TERR-OR-ISTS. they will act based on that and to serve thier goals. thats it
    Last edited by redbelt; 02/11/2006 at 06:04 PM.
  6. #706  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    redbelt,

    1) The Balfour Declaration was made in 1917. But Jewish migration started before and continues long after this. My point is that much the of Jewish migration to Israel after 1900 was due to persecution in their homelands.

    2) But these weren't technically "Muslim States". They were mostly just states with majority Muslim populations. And it isn't the fact that they have majority Muslim populations that is the reason non-Muslims aren't in the government, its because they aren't permitted to be in government. Why is it okay for Yemen, for example, to not allow non-Muslims to be in governent but it isn't okay for Israel to consider itself a Jewish state?

    By the way, I have been to Bahrain. Nice place! Especially in contrast to it's larger neighbor.

    1) still, lets say, in 1916, who owned this land? Palestinians. just because someone in power said he'll make a country there doesn't give him the right to because he does not own nor control the place to begin with.
    Thats like me promising arabs a new country in.. like.. Texas. And getting it approved by the Gulf cooperation Council. yahoo! Free land!

    2) shouldn't any representation um.. represnt the demographic in percentages?
    Still, many Arab governments are far from holy or wise. So I guess the propper answer is a bit of both.

    Great you were here, when was that? In March the first race of the F1 season will begin. You gotta see the Bahrain circuit. Visit again!
  7. #707  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Only an uninformed fool thinks Jesus meant we could never judge the rightness or wrongness of the actions of others if we had ourselves been once guilty.
    "Islamic" terrorists are:
    A) such fools
    B) Geniuses who use things like that to intrepet it in the wrong way to serve thier purpose.

    Voila, terrorist that can brainwash people!
  8. #708  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    As a naive observer, but without the paranoia of the west, I would say the goals of the people with the larger agenda, is to unite the Muslim world and return to the caliphate. They probably use past injustices to mobilize people, but have another agenda.

    Surur
    Possible

    But could be phase one only. Even if they made such a country, don't you think they will take over and become dictators? I would hardly expect a fair democracy with presidential elections in a country formed by Bin-Laden for example.
  9. #709  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Possible

    But could be phase one only. Even if they made such a country, don't you think they will take over and become dictators? I would hardly expect a fair democracy with presidential elections in a country formed by Bin-Laden for example.
    If they are religiously inspired I would assume the countries would be theocracies, like Iran. Maybe Iran is behind it all?

    Surur
  10. #710  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    "Islamic" terrorists are:
    A) such fools
    B) Geniuses who use things like that to intrepet it in the wrong way to serve thier purpose.

    Voila, terrorist that can brainwash people!
    Agreed. The disturbing bit is the large number (at least that's how it appears to us...) of Muslims who seem to accept these interpretations and support more radical elements of the faith.

    I admit this could be more appearance than reality.
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...
  11. #711  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    ...Maybe Iran is behind it all?

    Surur
    That's a good guess. It seems their President is determined to fan the flames into a holy war (and deflect attention away from their nuclear aims)

    http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/200...=home&SEC=news

    Is this a good time to bring up Biblical prophecy about the times in which we are living?
  12.    #712  
    I'm so sick of the bellyaching, I'm ready to buy one of these t-shirts...



    link
  13. #713  
    Is this the back?



    Surur
  14. #714  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Is this the back?
    I had two reactions:

    1) It's sad that the first reaction to insult is violence.
    2) Damn that was funny.
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...
  15. #715  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    As a naive observer, but without the paranoia of the west, I would say the goals of the people with the larger agenda, is to unite the Muslim world and return to the caliphate. They probably use past injustices to mobilize people, but have another agenda.

    Surur
    I don't think most Westerners are "paranoid", but we do have 2,967 very good reasons to be concerned. Oh, gee, there we go bringing up 9/11 again... won't we ever give it a rest?

    NO!
  16. #716  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    1) still, lets say, in 1916, who owned this land? Palestinians. just because someone in power said he'll make a country there doesn't give him the right to because he does not own nor control the place to begin with.
    Thats like me promising arabs a new country in.. like.. Texas. And getting it approved by the Gulf cooperation Council. yahoo! Free land!

    2) shouldn't any representation um.. represnt the demographic in percentages?
    Still, many Arab governments are far from holy or wise. So I guess the propper answer is a bit of both.

    Great you were here, when was that? In March the first race of the F1 season will begin. You gotta see the Bahrain circuit. Visit again!
    redbelt,

    1) The Jews began the first aliyah (return to Israel) in 1882 and came in successive waves afterward--it really didn't have anything to do with the Balfour Declaration. They did not take land. How could they? They had no weapons and no trained forces. Contrary to popular belief, they bought the land that they settled on from Arabs and Turks. They bought land nobody would ever have thought would have been missed at the time. It was either arid desert or swampy marshes. But, to them, it was the home of their fathers.

    2) My point here is that basically the claim that Israel is racist is holding them to a higher standard than any of the other countries in the region.

    As for Bahrain, I was there in 1997 and 1998 but for just a very short time. I didn't get to see much except for a bunch of rich Saudis picking up on the female expats. I do remember being impressed by how clean it was.
  17. #717  
    Problems in in Islamic societies:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/op...12qureshi.html
    (link probably valid for a few days)

    "Within the Muslim world, the cartoon imbroglio has given ammunition to the two entrenched forces for censorship namely, authoritarian regimes and their Islamic fundamentalist opposition. Both would prefer to silence their critics. By evincing outrage over the Danish cartoons, authoritarian regimes seek to divert attention from their own manifold failures and to bolster their religious credentials against the Islamists who seek to unseat them."
    ...
    "The Wahhabis who dominate Saudi Arabia do not believe in honoring Islam's holy men and women or the Prophet Muhammad (they've proscribed the celebration of his birthday). Driven by sectarian zeal, the Saudi authorities have razed and dug up virtually every site in Mecca and Medina linked to Muhammad, members of his family and his companions. But these acts of disrespect and desecration have failed to arouse any protest from those who now take to the streets to condemn the Danish cartoons."
    ...
    "Sunni Muslim fundamentalist leaders express anger over the Danish cartoons, but no comparable indignation over suicide bombers who attacked Shiite Muslim mosques during Ramadan in Iraq."
    ...
    "It is right and proper for Muslims to be offended, to be hurt, to protest. But we should be wary of the authoritarian voices that claim to speak and act in the name of Islam. The answer is not more violence and censorship, but rather peace, mercy and compassion."

    Emran Qureshi is a fellow at the Labor and Work Life Program at Harvard Law School.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  18. #718  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I had two reactions:

    1) It's sad that the first reaction to insult is violence.
    2) Damn that was funny.
    1) Sad, put provocation is an excuse used in rape crimes (or so I heard) same here I guess.

    2) nice
  19. #719  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    redbelt,

    1) The Jews began the first aliyah (return to Israel) in 1882 and came in successive waves afterward--it really didn't have anything to do with the Balfour Declaration. They did not take land. How could they? They had no weapons and no trained forces. Contrary to popular belief, they bought the land that they settled on from Arabs and Turks. They bought land nobody would ever have thought would have been missed at the time. It was either arid desert or swampy marshes. But, to them, it was the home of their fathers.

    2) My point here is that basically the claim that Israel is racist is holding them to a higher standard than any of the other countries in the region.

    As for Bahrain, I was there in 1997 and 1998 but for just a very short time. I didn't get to see much except for a bunch of rich Saudis picking up on the female expats. I do remember being impressed by how clean it was.
    I beg to differ. That declaration made Jews travel there en mass. And, despite whatever people say about Israel being democratic, I think its anything but. When they moved in, original home owners were driven out of thier homes. Not the "I can't pay this mortgage anymore" drive out, I'm talking breaking the door, killing people, throwing the rest of the family out, getting bulldozers to come & tear down houses on the spot. Next day rubble is removed to build colonies to "develop the land".
    Just last week, Alwatan news paper in Bahrain (www.alwatannews.net) printed a two page report on all mosques and churches dimolished by the Israeli regimne. I am not sure when did the study start (didn't read the whole thing) but it included 1200 mosques and churches. Torn apart in a similar manner to what I discribed. All of them turned into Bars, Resturants or a cattle store.
    I do not expect you to believe it. And also I do not expect you to believe that American media is not showing the whole picture.
    At the time of Mohammed Aldurra's death (yes, you never heard of him, try google) I had a friend of mine studying in Boston. He knew about the uproar from our calls, but he told me that nothing, at all, in the media mentions this. I went online, checked BBC, its there. France, same picture. CNN? nothing. Newspapers? nothing.
    I cannot prove that the media is selective, but you may wanna diversify your news sources just in case.
    As for the acts of terrorisim Israel did, they are all too well documented.
    Arabs will not believe Israel, Period.
  20. #720  
    A man surur should meet:

    Following are excerpts from comments made by Lebanese journalist 'Uqab Saqr, which aired on New TV on February 6, 2006'

    'Uqab Saqr: Whenever we question America's values, we must also question our own values. If we ask any question about the American occupation of Iraq, we must also ask: Was Saddam Hussein anything less than the worst occupier of Iraq? Has America, throughout its history, done anything like Saddam Hussein's acts of burning Iraqis? I can understand how an Iraqi child can be completely burnt in an indiscriminating American bombardment, but I cannot understand how Saddam Hussein could melt half of the Iraqi people in acid, and deport the other half.

    [...]

    What does identity mean for the Arab and the Muslim? His identity is based on two elements. The first is hostility towards the other. In other words, I define myself as the enemy of so-and-so. The second is entrenching this hostility. When we define ourselves by our hostility towards the other, whether the Americans or the Israelis or the so-called "Zio-Americanism", in which they include everything that is Western, non-Muslim and non-Arab... When we say we oppose this, what are we creating? We are creating a culture of opposition.

    [...]

    China did not need to send airplanes to crash into towers, to kill innocent people, and to distort the Chinese culture, in order to be in opposition [to the U.S.]. China has built a strong economy, established a network or relations with the markets, and developed scientific capabilities. Thus, it has managed to challenge the U.S., without declaring its opposition. Japan, too, developed a culture instead of declaring its opposition. How come we in the Arab and Islamic world are regressing, while the West is progressing? Why do we reproduce the culture of hatred? Simply because we lack the ability to develop our own culture, a culture that will move the Arabs and Muslims forward.

    [...]

    The Americans were not present in Mauritania, Sudan or Somalia, and the Israelis never bordered with these countries. Why have these countries become backward? Have they ever been among the countries encircling Israel? No. It is because the problem is within us.
    http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1033

    Is he right? Its certainly something to think about.

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