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  1. #681  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I think there are two points here, redbelt:

    1) Why are there only very small Jewish minorities in these countries--many of which had sizable Jewish communities no less than 70 years ago?

    2) Surur claims that Israel is racist when there are Arab Muslims on the Knesset. But many of these Muslim countries won't even allow a person in government if they're not Muslim and many others won't allow a person in government unless they are of a specific tribe. It seems to me that Israel is an inclusive and progressive govermnent by comparison.
    1) in 1948, Belfore (is that how you write his name?) promised the jews a home in Israel. After that people migrated in droves. Some still stay and live here in Bahrain as I mentioned. But most left.

    2) If the country is a MUSLIM STATE. How on Earth do you expect a Jewish guy to be in council? Its like the Vatican is racist because they wouldn't accept a Muslim cleric to be a decision maker there.
    If its a MUSLIM STATE (and countries do have the right to align themselves with a religion, mind) it makes perfect sense that the council is also MUSLIM. straight forward really.
    however, if there was a significant percentage of a minority present, it should be represented.
    In Bahrain, almost all citizens are either Sunni muslims or Shiiets muslims. Our Parliment concists of member of both. No jews are on board because we have only two families and compared to our population of 700.000, thats not a significant minority, is it.
    (yes, we are a very small country, its not bad though, pay us a visit!
  2. #682  
    redbelt,

    1) The Balfour Declaration was made in 1917. But Jewish migration started before and continues long after this. My point is that much the of Jewish migration to Israel after 1900 was due to persecution in their homelands.

    2) But these weren't technically "Muslim States". They were mostly just states with majority Muslim populations. And it isn't the fact that they have majority Muslim populations that is the reason non-Muslims aren't in the government, its because they aren't permitted to be in government. Why is it okay for Yemen, for example, to not allow non-Muslims to be in governent but it isn't okay for Israel to consider itself a Jewish state?

    By the way, I have been to Bahrain. Nice place! Especially in contrast to it's larger neighbor.
  3. #683  
    Hoovs, the point is that Israel DOES NOT have these rules, which in 5-10 years cause problems (e.g. they will have to consider adding Arabic parties in their coalition governments) and in 20 years will mean the Jewish population will be absolutely outnumbered. Are you proposing they add them?

    PS: There is dissenting opinions that the population growth rate of the Israeli Arabs are exaggerated, and that the fundamentalist Hasidic Jews (who often have 6 children) will more than make up for the secular Jews with only 1 or 2 children. This would however cause a swing of Israel to the right, towards becoming more of a theocracy.

    Surur
  4. #684  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Actually Germany was based on elections, at least up until the rise of the Nazi Party....
    This is all true. Surur seemed to me to be refuting my point about democracies being much less likely to wage war against each other by pointing to Hitler's Germany - a mind-bendingly bad example of a "democracy". Whatever the earlier history of Germany might be, we went to war against Hitler's Nazi Germany - not the Weimar Republic. There is, in fact, every reason to believe that if the US had remained engaged (or meddled, as surur might say) in Europe after WWI, France and England might not have imposed such a harsh peace upon Germany, Hitler might never have risen to power and 62 million (source: Wikipedia) people might not have been killed.

    My main point about the existence (and spread) of freedom and democracy in the world being in America's interest remains unrefuted. It is not a slogan - it is a fact.
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  5.    #685  
    Where has this thread gone? Surur has managed to turn the topic from Muslim hypocrisy to American hypocrisy.
  6. #686  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Where has this thread gone? Surur has managed to turn the topic from Muslim hypocrisy to American hypocrisy.
    If someone can show you to be a hypocrite they will feel as though they're immunized against the same charge.

    It's basically the same as the idiotic argument that because we might have done something to support someone like Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden at some point in the past, we can now not fight against or even object to what they do now.
    Last edited by phurth; 02/11/2006 at 12:55 PM.
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  7. #687  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    This is all true. Surur seemed to me to be refuting my point about democracies being much less likely to wage war against each other by pointing to Hitler's Germany - a mind-bendingly bad example of a "democracy". Whatever the earlier history of Germany might be, we went to war against Hitler's Nazi Germany - not the Weimar Republic. There is, in fact, every reason to believe that if the US had remained engaged (or meddled, as surur might say) in Europe after WWI, France and England might not have imposed such a harsh peace upon Germany, Hitler might never have risen to power and 62 million (source: Wikipedia) people might not have been killed.

    My main point about the existence (and spread) of freedom and democracy in the world being in America's interest remains unrefuted. It is not a slogan - it is a fact.
    I agree 100%. We obviously went to war against a dictator not a democracy.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/11/2006 at 01:14 PM.
  8. #688  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    But many of these Muslim countries won't even allow a person in government if they're not Muslim and many others won't allow a person in government unless they are of a specific tribe.
    Ironically, Iraq was relatively progressive in this regard, at least with respect to Iraqi Christians. Tariq Aziz, Saddam's foreign minister (IIRC...) was an Iraqi Christian.

    That's not to say that the Iraqi government was not a ruthless oppressor of minorities and opponents. It's just an interesting anomoly I thought I'd point out.
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  9.    #689  
    Kidnappers to Kill Jill Carroll 'According to Islamic Law'...

    See, Muslims don't even have a choice, they HAVE to kill her since it is Islam law. Muslims are so brave to stick to their doctrine, no matter what the world may think of them.
  10. #690  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Kidnappers to Kill Jill Carroll 'According to Islamic Law'...

    See, Muslims don't even have a choice, they HAVE to kill her since it is Islam law. Muslims are so brave to stick to their doctrine, no matter what the world may think of them.
    "or they will execute her according to Shariah" is the actual quote and the meaning you're applying to it is insulting to a religion.

    Besides, ever read the bible? The Old Testament is chock full of whacked out crap that people can quote.
  11. #691  
    Da...here is the full quote from the article:
    Sources close to the kidnappers informed Al-Rai TV that the kidnappers have set a Feb. 26 deadline for their demands to be met or they will execute her according to Shariah," he said, referring to Islamic law.
    I would be intereste in seeing what law he is referring to so see how he is using it...
  12. #692  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Da...here is the full quote from the article: I would be intereste in seeing what law he is referring to so see how he is using it...
    Um, yea. That's where I copied and pasted my quote from.

  13.    #693  
    What the hel! is the difference with my quote and that? Nothing.

    Please, the main difference is mainstream Christianity is not quoting the bible cutting of human heads. Why so defensive with these thugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    "or they will execute her according to Shariah" is the actual quote and the meaning you're applying to it is insulting to a religion.

    Besides, ever read the bible? The Old Testament is chock full of whacked out crap that people can quote.
  14. #694  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Um, yea. That's where I copied and pasted my quote from.

    You left out the
    he said, referring to Islamic law.
    And then said
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    the meaning you're applying to it is insulting to a religion.
    He was only quoting the article.
  15. #695  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Where has this thread gone? Surur has managed to turn the topic from Muslim hypocrisy to American hypocrisy.
    It was of course intentional. Where's that nice New Testament quote about the log from your own eye...

    Surur
  16. #696  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    "or they will execute her according to Shariah" is the actual quote and the meaning you're applying to it is insulting to a religion.

    Besides, ever read the bible? The Old Testament is chock full of whacked out crap that people can quote.
    Clearly the story is saying that when they murder an innocent woman they will be performing the actual act in accordance with Shariah law.

    I don't give a damn how they do it or how they justify the techniques they employ to commit murder.
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  17. #697  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    You left out the
    Jeebus! I haven't even had my coffee yet (well, enough coffee, ouch my head is hurty) and already I'm having to quote dictionary.com!

    sha·ri·‘a or sha·ri·a also sha·ri·‘ah Audio pronunciation of "sharia" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (shä-rä)
    n. Islam

    The code of law based on the Koran.

    So it's kinda redundant.
  18. #698  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    It was of course intentional. Where's that nice New Testament quote about the log from your own eye...
    Ah, yes, the canard where one cannot criticize those who may be doing things you (or apparently even your long-dead ancestors) have done.
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  19. #699  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Ah, yes, the canard where one cannot criticize those who may be doing things you (or apparently even your long-dead ancestors) have done.
    Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
    What WAS Jesus thinking!

    Surur
  20. #700  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    What WAS Jesus thinking!
    So do you believe everything Jesus said, or just those things you feel work to your advantage?

    However, since you asked, theologically, the verse you refer to speaks specifically to judging the sins of others before you yourself have confessed your own sin and sought forgiveness.

    Only an uninformed fool thinks Jesus meant we could never judge the rightness or wrongness of the actions of others if we had ourselves been once guilty.
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