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  1. #601  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    South Korea has a population of 45 million. North Korea 22 million. South Korea spends $20 billion on the military annually. North Korea spends $5 billion. South Korea has compulsory military service between the ages of 20 and 30 for two years. I'm sure they will be able to take care of their own defense.
    Wish I could share your confidence. I feel North is much more aggressive and would initiate conflict. Though you may be correct, ultimately South may successfully defend itself, the cost to both sides would be staggering IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Regarding Israel. Its a very difficult problem, but you know demographics will take care of it eventually, when the Arabs outbreed the Jews and Israel becomes less popular as a immigration target.. They will have take care of the problem sooner or later.

    Surur
    Is this a reasonable expectation, afterall this land has been fought over for millennia?
  2. #602  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Can you make any sensible defense of your murderous religion?
    I resent that. There are terrorists carying the Quran. They are to Islam is what the KKK (with flaming crosses) is to christianity.

    ...
    ...
    just our wackos are more I guess..

    Still, I resent that.
    Last edited by redbelt; 02/10/2006 at 03:56 PM.
  3. #603  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Is cutting off heads a requirement or is it in the Koran?
    Goodness gracious! Surely you jest!

    Of course it neither!
  4. #604  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    There is regional conflicts everywhere, including the middle east. America for some reason feel they have to intervene from afar. 100 years ago this was NOT their policy.
    So which is it? Do you wish we would learn from history or not?

    You'd be a better debater if you actually had a position to defend and would cite non-contradictory evidence to support it. You imply everyone else is ill-informed while you yourself offer only dubious sources to contradict prevailing wisdom on any number of issues. If you wish to make the extraordinary claim that the US has been a brutal detriment to the world, you're going to need to provide better evidence. In your world (well, one of them anyway) the world would be a better place if the US (the US-founded UN, actually) hadn't intervened in Korea. There are millions of South Koreans who haven't had to endure re-education camps or famine that likely do not share your opinion.

    My opinion is that the US is the best damn country in the world. What is not my opinion but is simple fact is that the world is a better, more free place because of US actions and our example as a self-governing democracy.

    Are we perfect? Far from it. One of our strengths - and something you could use a dose of - is that we are forward looking. We are not tied to the past. We do not feel the need to revisit past wrongs, either done to us or committed by us. Because we were cruel to the Native Americans does not bind our actions today to do the right thing. Unlike you, we do not buy the logical fallacy that because we did something wrong in the past we can't do the right thing today.

    At any rate, you seem to be arguing here for debate's own sake and not out of any actual belief or values. This valueless property is the only thing you've been consistent on all along.
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  5. #605  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Is this a reasonable expectation, afterall this land has been fought over for millennia?
    Israel is a democracy. There are Arabs and Jews in the country. The Jewish birth rate is 3 / woman. The Arab birth rate is 6/ woman. They predict by 2020 Arabs will outnumber Jews, especially if immigration slows down (as it has been, ironically, due to the "troubles")
    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...8/181802.shtml

    Surur
  6. #606  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Redbelt.....I am curious if you still stand behind Surur after all this?
    This thread is 30 pages long...

    Be a pal and ask more specific questions please! thanks!
  7. #607  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    South Korea has a population of 45 million. North Korea 22 million. South Korea spends $20 billion on the military annually. North Korea spends $5 billion. South Korea has compulsory military service between the ages of 20 and 30 for two years. I'm sure they will be able to take care of their own defense.
    Plese provide a source for these numbers. I'd also like to see them as a % of GDP.
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  8. #608  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    You'd be a better debater if you actually had a position to defend and would cite non-contradictory evidence to support it. You imply everyone else is ill-informed while you yourself offer only dubious sources to contradict prevailing wisdom on any number of issues. If you wish to make the extraordinary claim that the US has been a brutal detriment to the world, you're going to need to provide better evidence. In your world (well, one of them anyway) the world would be a better place if the US (the US-founded UN, actually) hadn't intervened in Korea. There are millions of South Koreans who haven't had to endure re-education camps or famine that likely do not share your opinion.

    My opinion is that the US is the best damn country in the world. What is not my opinion but is simple fact is that the world is a better, more free place because of US actions and our example as a self-governing democracy.
    You obviously believe in the domino theory. What exactly would be the effect on America of Korea falling under communist control. You realise that South Korea was left leaning in any case, and that this movement was suppresed by America?

    Are we perfect? Far from it. One of our strengths - and something you could use a dose of - is that we are forward looking. We are not tied to the past. We do not feel the need to revisit past wrongs, either done to us or committed by us. Because we were cruel to the Native Americans does not bind our actions today to do the right thing. Unlike you, we do not buy the logical fallacy that because we did something wrong in the past we can't do the right thing today.
    Thats perfect if you want to live guilt-lessly. It also causes you to dismiss the grievances of others who dont feel the same as you.

    At any rate, you seem to be arguing here for debate's own sake and not out of any actual belief or values. This valueless property is the only thing you've been consistent on all along.
    Of course I debate for debates sake! I have my opinions, but dont hold very strong feelings about any of these issues. Thats why I dont hate America, or donate money to suicide bombers. I'm much more concerned about my daughters private school fees. So are most Muslims. Most people live quiet lives, you know.

    Surur
  9. #609  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Plese provide a source for these numbers. I'd also like to see them as a % of GDP.
    I'll also note that dollars spent isn't terribly meaningful in a non-market economy. The DRK owns its people and all means of production.
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  10. #610  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    This thread is 30 pages long...

    Be a pal and ask more specific questions please! thanks!
    I am sitting in a restaurant typing with my BT ThinkOutside keyboard on my 6600.

    Basically Surur was making two basic claims when you said you agreed with what he was saying:

    1. That killing innocent people is excusable for terrorists due to any one of his multiple excuses for them or justifications of why it is someone's fault that they purposely target and kill innocent civilians.

    2. The other thing is that USA has done nothing good for world. But they have as long you count that they didn't.
  11. #611  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Plese provide a source for these numbers. I'd also like to see them as a % of GDP.
    Korea, South
    Population 48,422,644 (July 2005 est.)
    Military branches:
    Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, National Maritime Police (Coast Guard)
    Military service age and obligation:
    20-30 years of age for compulsory military service; conscript service obligation - 24-28 months, depending on the military branch involved; 18 years of age for voluntary military service; some 4,000 women serve as commissioned and noncommissioned officers, approx. 2.3% of all officers; women, in service since 1950, are admitted to seven service branches, including infantry; excluded from artillery, armor, anti-air, and chaplaincy corps (2005)
    Manpower available for military service:
    males age 20-49: 12,458,257 (2005 est.)
    Manpower fit for military service:
    males age 20-49: 9,932,026 (2005 est.)
    Total : 22,390,283
    Manpower reaching military service age annually:
    males: 344,723 (2005 est.)
    Military expenditures - dollar figure:
    $20 billion FY05 (2005)
    GDP (official exchange rate):
    $726.5 billion (2005 est.)
    Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
    2.5% FY05 (2005)
    Korea, North
    Population: 22,912,177 (July 2005 est.)
    Military branches:
    North Korean People's Army: Ground Force, Navy, Air Force; Civil Security Forces (2005)
    Military service age and obligation:
    17 years of age (2004)
    Manpower available for military service:
    males age 17-49: 5,851,801 (2005 est.)
    Manpower fit for military service:
    males age 17-49: 4,810,831 (2005 est.)
    Total : 10,662,632
    Manpower reaching military service age annually:
    males: 194,605 (2005 est.)
    Military expenditures - dollar figure:
    $5,217.4 million (FY02)
    GDP (purchasing power parity):
    $40 billion (2005 est.)
    Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
    NA
    http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/ks.html
    http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/kn.html

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 02/10/2006 at 04:05 PM.
  12. #612  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    You obviously believe in the domino theory. What exactly would be the effect on America of Korea falling under communist control. You realise that South Korea was left leaning in any case, and that this movement was suppresed by America?
    "Left leaning" and "communist dictatorship" are not synonyms.

    Freed om in the world is in America's interest. This is the lesson we learned from 20th century history.
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  13. #613  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I'll also note that dollars spent isn't terribly meaningful in a non-market economy. The DRK owns its people and all means of production.
    No matter how many peasants you have, it wont help you make advanced missile guidance systems or submarines faster.

    Surur
  14. #614  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    "Left leaning" and "communist dictatorship" are not synonyms.

    Freedom in the world is in America's interest. This is the lesson we learned from 20th century history.
    That sounds just like a slogan. How exactly did you learn this lesson? Elaborate.

    Surur
  15. #615  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I am sitting in a restaurant typing with my BT ThinkOutside keyboard on my 6600.

    Basically Surur was making two basic claims when you said you agreed with what he was saying:

    1. That killing innocent people is excusable for terrorists due to any one of his multiple excuses for them or justifications of why it is someone's fault that they purposely target and kill innocent civilians.

    2. The other thing is that USA has done nothing good for world. But they have as long you count that they didn't.
    1-No.
    From a common sense or Islam point of view; no. Nothing warrents it IMHO.

    2- America gave done alot of good. Its arrogant to say otherwise. However, I do think that thier motives when interfeering in other countries business is hardly noble in most cases. Its like the US government takes benefit in having a "controlled conflict" here or there.
  16. #616  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    South Korea has a population of 45 million. North Korea 22 million. South Korea spends $20 billion on the military annually. North Korea spends $5 billion. South Korea has compulsory military service between the ages of 20 and 30 for two years. I'm sure they will be able to take care of their own defense.

    Regarding Israel. Its a very difficult problem, but you know demographics will take care of it eventually, when the Arabs outbreed the Jews and Israel becomes less popular as a immigration target.. They will have take care of the problem sooner or later.

    Surur
    Regarding South Korea, you forgot about the nukes.

    Regarding Israel, they've already proven that it doesn't matter how many Arabs there are. Remember 1967?
  17. #617  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Regarding South Korea, you forgot about the nukes.
    Maybe South Korea should get some nukes then? Samsung could make them.

    Regarding Israel, they've already proven that it doesn't matter how many Arabs there are. Remember 1967?
    You mean they are going to kill all the Israeli Arabs? Or are they going to place them in independent homelands, like in their old partner South Africa?

    Surur
  18. #618  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    No matter how many peasants you have, it wont help you make advanced missile guidance systems or submarines faster.
    If you are arguing that the US/S. Korean military is superior - I completely agree. This begs the question of why we haven't just invaded at some point in the past decades to get it over with. Could it be that you are wrong about us?
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  19. #619  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    That sounds just like a slogan. How exactly did you learn this lesson? Elaborate.
    Uh... how about two world wars that began while we were disengaged from the world and were only ended when we became involved? How about stopping the Soviet Union from (at a minimum) completely dominating Europe?

    Is this not obvious?
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  20. #620  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    1. Do You Hate America? (yes/no) No
    Well, you've had me fooled
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    2. Do you support Terrorism? (yes/no) No
    You've already said you do, calling them freedom fighters etc. And your answer to #3 would lead me to believe you do
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    3. Do you belive Israel has the right to exsist? (yes/no) if yes; No
    So, now I can better understand you. You should be in favor of Terrorism, since the Palestinean people have "no other choice." I would think you would support Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and his (speculative) attempts at making Nuclear weapons. After all, if he thought to use one, I doubt it would be Egypt he'd fire one off to.

    If Israel does not have the right to exsist, what is the alternative? They're not going anywhere of their own free will.


    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Unlike others, I form my opinion based on research, not what I heard in the Presidential Address.

    Surur
    Good for you. I rarely listen to SoTU Addresses anymore, myself. Just campaign promises in front of a large captive audience.
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