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  1. #41  
    Again, their is a difference in violence done by atheists, and violence done in the name of atheists. The millions that died under Stalinism was due to farmers apposing collectivism, not due to them apposing atheism.

    Surur
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    People will always kill other people. The motivation is what is important.
    Fully agree

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    The people being killed and tortured in Iraq was not in the name of religion. The people being killed by the Spanish inquisition were. As was the Crusades for example.
    You just went against your first statement. People in Iraq are being killed in the name of purging the Infidels but ultimately because of the power they are they are threatened with losing if democracy takes a hold.....especially if they know they are the not the mainstream

    The Spanish Inquisition was in from a PRPRPR $perspective$ $in$ $the$ $name$ $of$ $religion$ $but$ $was$ $really$ $about$ $only$ $power$, $crops$ $and$ $other$ $exports$, $land$, $and$ $gold$.

    The Crusades were much the same. It was sold in the name of religion but had more to do with egos of those in power wanting more power, political gain at home, money from the spoils, etc....

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    The people killed in 911 was certainly in the name of religion. There is a difference between being killed by some-one who happens to be a Moslem for invading their country, and being killed for being a Christian (although being dead you probably would not care much)
    So was 9/11 because of our invasion of Iraq that hasn't happened yet? In the case of 9/11 the attack was because they were both Americans and Christians. See declaration below.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    In this half century (post WWII) many of the regional groups arose due to territorial disputes. Hamas is a perfect example of this. Al Queda is the only Islamic group I can think of currently with a pure ideological motivation for their war.

    Surur
    Again, motivations, actions, and statements all must be taking into account. Here is the statement that OBL completely supports and has often waved as his mission statement, among several others even more direct at killing all non-Muslims.

    Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
    World Islamic Front Statement

    http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

    Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshiped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

    --------------

    All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims

    --------------

    On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

    The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it

    ---------------

    We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.
    Don't full yourself into thinking that AQ is NOT interested in power. In controlling gov for their own will and motivations, be it power, ego, money, religious, etc.... They are in the game to control and conquer.

    In so doing they call on every Muslim and every Muslim Leader to stand with them. The vast majority of them are not actively participating, but without speaking out to claims that include them in it, are passively supporting it. It is hard to stand up. But if they don't want to be associated with it, they need to as a group.
  3. #43  
    When talking about Iraq I was referring to Saddam Hussain times. Iraq and 911 are obviously unrelated. The very fact that Al Queda wants to kill all 'infidels' should tell you its about ideology, wheres Hamas would propably go away if given territory.

    Most movements wrap themselves up in populist talk e.g. nationalism, racism or religion, but usually the underlying motivations are clear.

    Surur
  4. #44  
    No Hamas will not go away if given territory. Clinton the last 2 months of being in office offered nearly every single one of their demands for land they have made. The refused and said if Israel is not destroyed they will never accept any terms. They have restated this several times before and since. This is one the things that I think Clinton did really good. I am not sure if I fully agree with how many of their demands he gave into them with, but at least it was a good attempt at reaching a peace that was utterly rejected due to the fact that Israel would still exist.

    To support this they blow up innocents eating dinner as families in public resteraunts. They blow up innocents simply taking a ride on a public bus. But do you see the protests from the people when they kill innocent civilians?
  5. #45  
    If you knew how Israel aquired that territory you would understand why they are not considered a legal state by many of their neighbours, hence the popularity of the phrase "truth on the ground" amongst Israelies, which basically means forget the past, accept the current situation.

    Hamas accepting the Clinton offer is similar to the Native American accepting their reservations. Maybe advisable, but only when you are completely broken and all your pride is gone.

    Just to re-iterate. Palistine is about land, not religion. The Jews lived for decades in peace with the Palistinians before they decided to displace them and set up Israel. Ironically there was jewish terrorists then against the british governers, including bombs.

    Surur
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Again, their is a difference in violence done by atheists, and violence done in the name of atheists. The millions that died under Stalinism was due to farmers apposing collectivism, not due to them apposing atheism.

    Surur
    Holodomor was indeed one of the most horrific examples of the failed policies of Communism. But, as bad as it was, it was only part of the story. Communists did wage a campaign against religion. In the Soviet Union, there was a major campaign against the Orthodox Church and countless were killed or imprisoned. China has waged, and still is waging, an unofficial compaign against religion in many forms. Tito's Yugoslavia, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Viet Nam, North Korea, the list goes on.

    The majority, but not all of the people killed under Communism died in forced labor. But the majority of those were sent to forced labor because of various religious or political views.

    Now, this can't be laid on all Atheists any more than the hundreds of bombings done in the name of Islam can be laid on all Muslims. But atheism was a main tenet and driving factor of Communist regimes around the world and one can easily see how a Darwinistic, or at least social Darwinist, view of humanity can lead to such actions.
  7.    #47  
    Well Israel existing is a lot more legitimate than Hamas blowing up people. Wasn't Israel's borders made by the United Nations and agreed by the United Nations? Any additional territory acquired was b/c other countries going to war with Israel, getting their az kicked in a few days and Israel keeping a portion of it. Extremely simple statement, but Muslims need to get over Israel existing b/c the west will never waiver on their right to exist. Israel will be defended even if it means war. I am beginning to think this is the only way to end terrorism, an all out war against terrorism across all borders.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If you knew how Israel aquired that territory you would understand why they are not considered a legal state by many of their neighbours, hence the popularity of the phrase "truth on the ground" amongst Israelies, which basically means forget the past, accept the current situation.

    Hamas accepting the Clinton offer is similar to the Native American accepting their reservations. Maybe advisable, but only when you are completely broken and all your pride is gone.

    Just to re-iterate. Palistine is about land, not religion. The Jews lived for decades in peace with the Palistinians before they decided to displace them and set up Israel. Ironically there was jewish terrorists then against the british governers, including bombs.

    Surur
  8. #48  
    I consider myself fairly liberal, and very tolerant. But I've about had enough of 'muslim tolerance.'

    In many Islamic countries, you will be jailed just for practicing a non-muslim religion. Proselitizing for another religion can get you killed. In those Muslim countries that "allow" Christians to practice, Christians are generally a minority that is discriminated against just like blacks used to be in America. Truly second class citizens.

    Muslims around the world demand tolerance for their beliefs, while giving little or none to the beliefs of others. They expect societies around the world to follow islamic teaching when it comes to muslims, but show no respect for the teachings of Christ, or Budda, or any other culture. Islamic schools the world over, even among our great friends like the Saudis, the Egyptians, the Pakastanis and more teach nothing but hate for the rest of the world.

    In America, if we don't allow a Muslim time of from work so he can pray to Mecca when required, we're guilty of discrimination. But in Saudi Arabia, if you stop to say a Christian blessing before eating lunch at a public restaurant, you'll go to jail. How about a little tolerance from the Muslims for a change?

    We're continually told that Islam is a peace loving religion, and that the terrorists and others who advocate violence on behalf of Islam have perverted the religion, and are using the religion as a cover for their political beliefs. If so, then when are all the muslims living in America going to come together to protest the actions of fundamentalist governments around the world? Where are the Islamic religious leaders in America, and Europe, and Asia? When are they going to demand changes in the way the leaders of the religion in the middle east teach? When are THEY going to publically demand an end to hatred?

    Supposedly democratic and peace loving muslims all over the world are demanding violance against European institutions for printing a CARTOON, for God's sake. (There, I just used the lord's name in vain. How many Christian churches are going to demand my head for that? Right, none.)

    If Islam was ever a peaceful religion, it's been perverted over hundreds of years to be an instrument of hatred and intolerance. American muslims happily donate millions of dollars every year to institutions which teach hatred and advocate the destruction of Israel. That's peace loving? That's tolerance? I don't think so.

    I've changed my views on this reluctantly, but I'm forced to admit that I have no respect for the teachings of Islam as it is taught today. I have no tolerance for those who preach hatred. I have no respect for those in the muslim community who see what's happened to the religion and do nothing to protest or to change it.

    Have Christians made their share of mistakes? Certainly. The Crusades, slavery, bigotry against women, blacks, Asians, homosexuals are all blights against the Christian church. Fortunately, most of this is history, not the actions and beliefs of the modern church (except homosexuality -- and I believe that someday churches will be as embarassed by their stand on gays as they now are by their historical stands on blacks).

    Christian preachers who advocate the bombings of abortion clinics are as bad as Imam's who advocate suicide bombings of buses and train stations. The difference is that the leadership of mainstream Christian religions, and the vast majority of Christians everywhere, are appalled by, and opposed to, this kind of violence, and give it no support. But it really seems to me that the majority of Islamic leaders, and of muslims around the world, support the actions of those who burned embassies today, and who set off bombs in Israel, and Spain, and the U.S. In many cases directly, by funneling money to Islamic organizations that support terror. And in many cases tacitly, by doing nothing to oppose it.

    Muslims call Westerners intolerant for publishing these cartoons. While at the same time publishing cartoons that depict Jews as devils and Christ as evil. Muslims call the U.S. evil for killing civilians while trying to kill terrorists, but praise those Muslims who kill women and children in Israel, London, Spain and New York. It's not Christians or Jews or Buddists that are killing thousands of people in terrorist attacks. It's muslims, period.

    It's time to wake up to reality, and get over the idea that "racial profiling" is bad. It's an absolute waste of time, money, and safety to spend 20 minutes doing an extended search of some 70 year old, white haired grandmother from Minnesota while 5 middle easterners walk through security onto the plane.

    If Muslims don't like the fact that they get extra attention when they fly, then let them drive, or go back to the mideast where they can enjoy their "freedoms."
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If you knew how Israel aquired that territory you would understand why they are not considered a legal state by many of their neighbours, hence the popularity of the phrase "truth on the ground" amongst Israelies, which basically means forget the past, accept the current situation.
    How did they get the land?
  10.    #50  
    The main difference being I don't care if someone says my religion sucks, but if a Muslim is told his/her religion sucks they will kill you. I'm more than comfortable knowing blasphemy only works with a real God, not a pedophile.

    Quote Originally Posted by eKeith
    With that logic, then all religions, Christianity, Judism, Hinduism, Islam etc. all suck because every one has a radical minority (albeit to different extents) which the majority is unable to convert...
    ... and honestly, I can't disagree with that... anyone who justifies the murder of innocence falls into that category for me...
  11. vw2002's Avatar
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    #51  
    I agree 100% with what meyerweb just said above.

    I'm thoroughly disgusted with people clamoring for muslim tolerance, when these muslims have ZERO tolerance for anyone different from them!!!

    its a one-way street with them, and it leaves no room for diplomacy or collaboration.

    they can come to our country and demand every right to practice their religion, but we cannot go to theirs and do the same without being killed? absolute hypocrits.
    the attitudes of such muslims today are going to lead to a full blown world war, if we are not in one already.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If you knew how Israel acquired that territory you would understand why they are not considered a legal state by many of their neighbors, hence the popularity of the phrase "truth on the ground" amongst Israelies, which basically means forget the past, accept the current situation.

    Hamas accepting the Clinton offer is similar to the Native American accepting their reservations. Maybe advisable, but only when you are completely broken and all your pride is gone.

    Just to re-iterate. Palistine is about land, not religion. The Jews lived for decades in peace with the Palistinians before they decided to displace them and set up Israel. Ironically there was jewish terrorists then against the british governers, including bombs.

    Surur
    I do know my history.....I dare say more than the average person.....How far back in history do we go back, or how far back do we ignore when talking about the right to claim Israel a nation?

    The country was created under unique circumstances but not in an unheard of way. As stated it was sanctioned by and approved by all members of the UN (and this was back when it still had power ).

    Do you recall the 6 day war? The Muslim nations got their clocks cleaned by a little noobie country who all at once fought against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. As a result Israel acquired additional land. This is the start of many of the conflicts today, that have grown into the annihilation of Israel or nothing attitude. Many of it is LARGELY religious and to deny this is ignorant. Look at the dome of the rock vs the Jews prophesy to rebuild the Temple which is reported to be at.....The Dome of the Rock. Talk a war just waiting to happen.

    A large amount of Palistines refuse to accept and don't even know that the Holocaust even existed. There are loads of issue at play. Power, money, land, and religion all are major players.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    How did they get the land?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

    Basically, after being absent from the area for + 1200 years, they basically re-occupied the area via successive waves of immigration. When they started buying up land this caused tension. Eventually after mass immigration they constituted an outright majority. The british, who administered the area, tried to limit immigration, but were the subject of a terrorist ccampaign by jewish settlers. EEventually the british gave up. Aafter the horror of the haulocast wwas revealed sympathies for a jjewish homeland was high, and they wwere given 55% of the land area, wwhere less than 100 years earlier tthey had none.

    In many ways it parralels the settlement of America by Europeans.

    Surur
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    I agree 100% with what meyerweb just said above.

    I'm thoroughly disgusted with people clamoring for muslim tolerance, when these muslims have ZERO tolerance for anyone different from them!!!

    its a one-way street with them, and it leaves no room for diplomacy or collaboration.

    they can come to our country and demand every right to practice their religion, but we cannot go to theirs and do the same without being killed? absolute hypocrits.
    the attitudes of such muslims today are going to lead to a full blown world war, if we are not in one already.
    I've spent some time in the Middle East and can attest to this. Non-Muslim religious establishments are not allowed in Saudi Aradia, for example, and make-shift Christmas celebrations by expatriate workers are routinely quashed.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

    Basically, after being absent from the area for + 1200 years, they basically re-occupied the area via successive waves of immigration. When they started buying up land this caused tension. Eventually after mass immigration they constituted an outright majority. The british, who administered the area, tried to limit immigration, but were the subject of a terrorist ccampaign by jewish settlers. EEventually the british gave up. Aafter the horror of the haulocast wwas revealed sympathies for a jjewish homeland was high, and they wwere given 55% of the land area, wwhere less than 100 years earlier tthey had none.

    In many ways it parralels the settlement of America by Europeans.

    Surur
    Right, they bought land--and often at inflated prices from the Ottomans and rich Arab land-owners. What is wrong with this? Do you think Americans don't have a right to the land either?
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    The main difference being I don't care if someone says my religion sucks, but if a Muslim is told his/her religion sucks they will kill you. I'm more than comfortable knowing blasphemy only works with a real God, not a pedophile.
    If you were more religious you would be more offended. 500 years ago you could also be killed for blasphamy by the vatican. You do not appear to understand the younger religion is more fundamentalist, just like Christianity has been in the past.

    Surur
  17. #57  
    By the way, they were never completely absent from Israel. There has always been a Jewish presence in Israel.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If you were more religious you would be more offended. 500 years ago you could also be killed for blasphamy by the vatican. You do not appear to understand the younger religion is more fundamentalist, just like Christianity has been in the past.

    Surur
    I've already contested this claim. Islams "Golden Age" was 7 Centuries ago. Wahhabism is only two hundred years old.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I've already contested this claim. Islams "Golden Age" was 7 Centuries ago. Wahhabism is only two hundred years old.
    There is no way of knowing that, as they environment and communication was not the same. We do however know how the Church at the time dealt with blasphemy.

    Regarding the settlement of America, maybe you should be asking the native americans how they feel about that process. A similar process occured in Australia.

    When it comes down to it, the moral of the story is "might makes right".

    Surur
  20. #60  
    First, what we do know is that everyone claims this was Islam's Golden Age--you know, they rescued Aristotle and invented algebra and everyone lived in peace and harmony (as long as they paid the taxes). And we do know that Wahhabism was a response to "liberalism" in Islam. Thus, it seems as though your theory about a young religion being more violent is faulty since Islam appears to have moved in a decidedly more violent direction.

    Second, I'm not asking any native Americans, I'm asking you. Do we "Europeans" have a right to be here?
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