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  1. #401  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    How does that apply to anything in my post, except it supports what I said of us not getting involved until asked (or attacked first). You made a claim that the US goes around bullying people when we have no interest, and commented on how effective our military is. You are really trying to spin, are you French?
    Again, read what you wrote yourself. You only intervene when your own interests is served, not when people are pleading for your help. America is NOT noble. Thats just propaganda.

    And its rather funny when you talk about "not sitting on the sidelines voting for 10 more years of sanctions that are being violated right under our nose.". You do know Israel has various UN resolutions against them, that go completely unenforced by "the worlds policeman". Do you also know America has a $1.9 billion settlement against them by the world court for mining Nicaraguan harbours, killing a number of people?

    Let me repeat again - America is NOT Noble. They only act in their own self-interest.

    Surur
  2. #402  
    Quote Originally Posted by nonobeez
    I personally think that Muslims are very tolerant when it comes to religion.
    I agree! The Taliban blasting away those Buddha statues was VERY tolerant. Fantastic, all inclusive and loving souls they are!

    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  3. #403  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Maybe some of those millions in Aid to Israel should be used to repatriate the Israelis? You help set up an unstable situation, and then complain when you are accused of intimidating everyone to maintain it?

    Surur
    Maybe you'd like to be "repatriated" to the land of your fathers? Should the UK do this as well?
  4. #404  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Let me repeat again - America is NOT Noble. They only act in their own self-interest.
    If this is indeed the case then how does it make us any worse than anyone else?
  5. #405  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Maybe some of those millions in Aid to Israel should be used to repatriate the Israelis?
    Elaborate, please.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  6. #406  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    If this is indeed the case then how does it make us any worse than anyone else?
    How does it make them better? And if they are no better, are they fit to wield the power they wield in their own self-interest?

    Whats worse is that they are no better than anyone else, and act that way, but due to their power their actions have global consequences (e.g. ignoring the Kyoto treaty). Also they pretend to be better than anyone else, which is hypocritical, which I find irksome.

    Surur
  7. #407  
    Quote Originally Posted by nonobeez
    Spain is a mostly catholic country, and it was once part of the persian empire but the native were not converted to islam.
    That's not true. Spain was never part of the Persian empire. It was part of the Umayyad empire, then the Abbasids and then by several Berber dynasties who were indeed very intolerant of Christians and Jews.
  8. #408  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Elaborate, please.
    Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US
    By David R. Francis | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

    Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.

    This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analyses of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

    For the first time in many years, Mr. Stauffer has tallied the total cost to the US of its backing of Israel in its drawn-out, violent dispute with the Palestinians. So far, he figures, the bill adds up to more than twice the cost of the Vietnam War.

    And now Israel wants more. In a meeting at the White House late last month, Israeli officials made a pitch for $4 billion in additional military aid to defray the rising costs of dealing with the intifada and suicide bombings. They also asked for more than $8 billion in loan guarantees to help the country's recession-bound economy.

    Considering Israel's deep economic troubles, Stauffer doubts the Israel bonds covered by the loan guarantees will ever be repaid. The bonds are likely to be structured so they don't pay interest until they reach maturity. If Stauffer is right, the US would end up paying both principal and interest, perhaps 10 years out.

    Israel's request could be part of a supplemental spending bill that's likely to be passed early next year, perhaps wrapped in with the cost of a war with Iraq.

    Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.

    Adjusting the official aid to 2001 dollars in purchasing power, Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973, Stauffer reckons. In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel.

    "Consequently, politically, if not administratively, those outlays are part of the total package of support for Israel," argues Stauffer in a lecture on the total costs of US Middle East policy, commissioned by the US Army War College, for a recent conference at the University of Maine.

    These foreign-aid costs are well known. Many Americans would probably say it is money well spent to support a beleagured democracy of some strategic interest. But Stauffer wonders if Americans are aware of the full bill for supporting Israel since some costs, if not hidden, are little known.

    One huge cost is not secret. It is the higher cost of oil and other economic damage to the US after Israel-Arab wars.

    In 1973, for instance, Arab nations attacked Israel in an attempt to win back territories Israel had conquered in the 1967 war. President Nixon resupplied Israel with US arms, triggering the Arab oil embargo against the US.

    That shortfall in oil deliveries kicked off a deep recession. The US lost $420 billion (in 2001 dollars) of output as a result, Stauffer calculates. And a boost in oil prices cost another $450 billion.

    Afraid that Arab nations might use their oil clout again, the US set up a Strategic Petroleum Reserve. That has since cost, conservatively, $134 billion, Stauffer reckons.

    Other US help includes:

    US Jewish charities and organizations have remitted grants or bought Israel bonds worth $50 billion to $60 billion. Though private in origin, the money is "a net drain" on the United States economy, says Stauffer.

    The US has already guaranteed $10 billion in commercial loans to Israel, and $600 million in "housing loans." (See editor's note below.) Stauffer expects the US Treasury to cover these.

    The US has given $2.5 billion to support Israel's Lavi fighter and Arrow missile projects.

    Israel buys discounted, serviceable "excess" US military equipment. Stauffer says these discounts amount to "several billion dollars" over recent years.

    Israel uses roughly 40 percent of its $1.8 billion per year in military aid, ostensibly earmarked for purchase of US weapons, to buy Israeli-made hardware. It also has won the right to require the Defense Department or US defense contractors to buy Israeli-made equipment or subsystems, paying 50 to 60 cents on every defense dollar the US gives to Israel.

    US help, financial and technical, has enabled Israel to become a major weapons supplier. Weapons make up almost half of Israel's manufactured exports. US defense contractors often resent the buy-Israel requirements and the extra competition subsidized by US taxpayers.

    US policy and trade sanctions reduce US exports to the Middle East about $5 billion a year, costing 70,000 or so American jobs, Stauffer estimates. Not requiring Israel to use its US aid to buy American goods, as is usual in foreign aid, costs another 125,000 jobs.

    Israel has blocked some major US arms sales, such as F-15 fighter aircraft to Saudi Arabia in the mid-1980s. That cost $40 billion over 10 years, says Stauffer.

    Stauffer's list will be controversial. He's been assisted in this research by a number of mostly retired military or diplomatic officials who do not go public for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic if they criticize America's policies toward Israel.

    Editor's note: A previous version of this story incorrectly reported the amount of housing loans guaranteed by the US.
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

    Summary
    Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
    Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

    Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
    $74,157,600,000

    Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
    $9,047,227,200

    Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
    $1,650,000,000

    Grand Total
    $84,854,827,200

    Total Benefits per Israeli
    $14,630
    Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
    Aid to Israel

    Grand Total
    $84,854,827,200

    Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
    $49,936,680,000

    Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
    $134,791,507,200

    Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
    $23,240
    http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

    Do you really think Israel is an independent country? Its massively subsidized by America. One can conclude from that that Israeli policy is in fact American policy, as they dont seem to be exerting their tremendous influence in changing their behavior.

    The Jewish population in Israel grows mainly by immigration, again a policy which must have the approval of America, even though it directly leads to building on occupied land.

    If America did not support the Jewish immigrants that process would stop, and people would return to the countries they came from 5, 10 or 20 years ago.

    America is SOLELY responsible for maintaining the most destabilizing situation in the world. It would be like UK hanging on to Hong Kong after their lease expired (which they did not, and the tales of disaster that went round before the hand over never did occur).

    Surur
  9. #409  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    How does it make them better? And if they are no better, are they fit to wield the power they wield in their own self-interest?

    Whats worse is that they are no better than anyone else, and act that way, but due to their power their actions have global consequences (e.g. ignoring the Kyoto treaty). Also they pretend to be better than anyone else, which is hypocritical, which I find irksome.
    Answer the question. You're the one that is so anti-American. But if we're truly no different than anyone else then why so bitter?

    I maintain that we are different. Take, for example, the other major powers in the last Century. As I've explained to you before, every place that they (Communists) thrived, people died en masse. Every place that they were stopped (by the US) people we ultimately spared.
  10. #410  
    Surur,

    Can we stop aid to Egypt as well? I noticed you didn't post any statistics for them.
  11. #411  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I maintain that we are different. Take, for example, the other major powers in the last Century. As I've explained to you before, every place that they (Communists) thrived, people died en masse. Every place that they were stopped (by the US) people we ultimately spared.

    Iran was a prosperous and forward thinking government until the US started medding in theri business... In the Pre bush era... 60's
    .
    .
    .Treo Pro on Sprint Check out www.treotricks.com, Audio jack fix.
  12. #412  
    Apparently the aid to Egypt was protection money, for the benefit of Israel. How convenient.

    Notice the scale of intervention that America is exerting. This money could have gone to eradicating malaria for example.

    Surur
  13. #413  
    Top recipients of US aid each year

    Iraq - In 2004, it will become the largest recipient of US aid, receiving $18.4 billion.
    Israel - The largest recipient of US largesse in 2003, getting $2.1 billion in military aid annually; $600 million in economic aid.
    Egypt - Out of a US foreign aid budget of about $14 billion in 2003, Egypt was the second largest recipient with $1.3 billion in military aid; $615 million for social programs.
    Colombia - Got $540 million to battle the drug trade, and local terrorist groups.
    Jordan - Got $250 million in economic support; $198 in military financing.
    Peru, Ukraine, Russia - Received approximately $200 million each in economic and military aid annually.
    SOURCE: COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS
  14. #414  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    [url]
    America is SOLELY responsible for maintaining the most destabilizing situation in the world. It would be like UK hanging on to Hong Kong after their lease expired (which they did not, and the tales of disaster that went round before the hand over never did occur).

    Surur
    Wow. Just.......Wow. You give the US FAR too much credit for controling Israel. And by the way, where again are those US colonies that would equate to UK/Hong Kong?
  15. #415  
    See above.

    Surur
  16. #416  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Do you really think Israel is an independent country? Its massively subsidized by America. One can conclude from that that Israeli policy is in fact American policy, as they dont seem to be exerting their tremendous influence in changing their behavior.

    The Jewish population in Israel grows mainly by immigration, again a policy which must have the approval of America, even though it directly leads to building on occupied land.

    If America did not support the Jewish immigrants that process would stop, and people would return to the countries they came from 5, 10 or 20 years ago.
    You often talk from both sides. First you say America should repatriate Isrealis, and then you complain because of the immigration to Israel. Since most of these people are no doubt Jews, it seems they are being repatriated.

    So what is it that you want?

    Excuse me for being a dumb American, but i don't get your thinking
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  17. #417  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    You often talk from both sides. First you say America should repatriate Isrealis, and then you complain because of the immigration to Israel. Since most of these people are no doubt Jews, it seems they are being repatriated.

    So what is it that you want?

    Excuse me for being a dumb American, but i don't get your thinking
    Perhaps I can help -

    America - BAD
    Europe - Good
  18. #418  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Wow. Just.......Wow. You give the US FAR too much credit for controling Israel. And by the way, where again are those US colonies that would equate to UK/Hong Kong?
    Do you even KNOW that Hawai was stolen from the ruling family, and annexed by America in 1898? Sheesh...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii

    Surur
  19. #419  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    You often talk from both sides. First you say America should repatriate Isrealis, and then you complain because of the immigration to Israel. Since most of these people are no doubt Jews, it seems they are being repatriated.

    So what is it that you want?

    Excuse me for being a dumb American, but i don't get your thinking
    Hello.... Repatriate FROM ISRAEL to their countries of origin. (USA, Russia etc)

    During the 1990s, the Jewish population growth rate was about 3% per year, as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. There is also a high population growth rate among certain Jewish groups, especially adherents of Haredi Judaism.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...migration_rate

    Surur
  20. #420  
    Quote Originally Posted by nonobeez
    Iran was a prosperous and forward thinking government until the US started medding in theri business... In the Pre bush era... 60's
    Actually, Iran was in several transitional stages for most of the last Century. They had small periods of prosperity intermingled with various revolutionary attemtps. And the US "meddling" was preceded by Soviet and British meddling.

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