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  1. #21  
    It doesn't bother me if someone draws a picture of Christ with a nuclear bomb for his forehead, and if I were Muslim, it wouldn't bother me if someone drew that cartoon of Muhammad with the bomb in his headdress. But I live in California, where I grew up checking out nearly naked women on the beach, morals are defined by Hollywood, and the divorce rate is so high it makes you wonder why people get married.

    This cartoon was drawn to incite, and that is what it did. If I know a Rottweiler is going to bite me if I kicked him in the balls, and then I kick him in the balls and he bites me, should I be surprised? Shocked? Indignant?

    One of the earlier posts referred to Muslim nations living in the 1200s, and in many ways that is correct. The majority of Muslims are traditionalists who interpret the Quran very literally and narrowly, based not on the teachings of Muhammad, but by how theologins and politicians interpreted his teachings several hundred years after the fact, much like how Christianity is not defined by Christ, but by the politicians and theologins who interpreted his teachings several hundred years after the fact. The civil war raging amongst Muslims is all about whether they live in the 21st century, or the 12th century.

    Oh, and the Spanish American War, a battle between Christian nations, was precipitated by muckraking journalists who told stories of "hopped-up hemp-heads" who raped white women and slaughtered innocent (and imaginary) Americans. The American public took the bait hook, line and sinker. And before you knew it, Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philipines were under our "protection."

    Come to think of it, we invaded a certain Muslim country recently after being fed truly comical stories about weapons of mass destruction, aiding terrorists, and humanitarian concerns, which the American people once again fell for, hook, line, and sinker. Turns out it was all about enriching the oil men who got G.W. elected in the first place. But then, you already knew that.
  2. #22  
    Jeeze Clarence, your comments sound so...Christian! Are you sure you aren't a left wing hippy liberal?
  3. #23  
    alfanatic,

    You oversimplify the situation a bit, to say the least.

    First, leaving the comparison of Mulsims with a dog aside, a "kick in the balls" is a far cry from an insulting comic strip. You'd think there was a physical provocation. Yet, nothing of the kind happened. Conversly, nothing happened to the vast majority of American Muslims after 9/11; nothing happened to the vast majority of Spanish Muslims after 3/11; and nothing happened to the vast majority of British Muslims after 7/7. When those were, in fact, very physical provocations. So, I think the comparison is lacking on several fronts.

    Second, Islam is hugely impacted by the teachings of Mohammed. The Quran is written by him, the Hadith are sayings by and about him, and the teachings since are based on his sayings. Muslims may be influenced by Centuries of self-serving theologians, but the acts they do today are always linked to some saying by Mohammed. Furthermore, you mention "theologians and politicians" but part of the issue is that there is no distinction between secular and sacred in Islam to both theologian and politician are just two branches of the same belief. I refer you to What Went Wrong by Bernard Lewis. Christianity, nay, the teachings of Christ, on the other hand, have very clear cut distinctions between sacred and secular. So, while the past has seen many examples of "Christian nations", Christianity itself offers no support for it. And as far as here and now, with the exception of a small minority of theonomists, very few Christians want the Church and state mixed. I only say this to point out that you can't so easily compare Christianity and Islam. You can compare Christians and Muslims though, since both groups are, in fact, humans. And this is the crux of the issue, humans tend toward evil. It's in our nature. And while each individual must be judged by his/her actions--as our friend Clarence mentions--we can judge philosophies and religions based on their appeal to that human nature. So I think its a valid question to ask whether there is something inherent in this religion that appeals to the side of human beings that would do ill.

    Third, just a minor point, while some Americans were probably outraged by those "hopped-up hemp-heads" in the turn of the last Century, I tend to think that most Americans were outraged by the real summary executuons and forced relocations that cost hundreds of thousands of Cuban lives. But, again, the comparison is lacking because in one case we're talking about people being concerned about the physical safety of other people (i.e., those women being raped by the hopped-up hemp-heads) in the other case we're talking about a revered man being insulted. Which do you think is worse?
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by ClarenceCM3
    America is steping 50-60 year in the past with the way they are reacting to islam and muslims in general.

    Sept 11, Sept 11, everybody shouting Sept 11. Bad evil things happen everyday. We can't blame anyone but the people who committ the acts. Stop being ignorant.

    No religion teaches evilness, but all religions have been twisted to committ evil acts.

    The people have a right to be upset, the cartoons, along with a lot of anti islam, and aligning islam with terrism " like the comments on this post" has been going on. People are trying to blame innocent muslim for sept 11. And now every muslim is looked at as a terrorist, or somebody who let the fellow muslim commit terror. An innoccent child being born to muslim parent is already being brought into a world where people will see him in a bad light. Is that right.

    Most muslims, like all other religion are inherited from there parents. 99 percent of people don't choose their religion they just follow suit. Don't judge they based on this.
    I really don't think most Americans hold Muslims as whole responsible for 9/11. I think that they realize that a fanatical minority are the ones running screaming the loudest and bombing innocent people in the name of Islam.

    But what I do find very strange is the level of acceptance of these practices. I mean, how many people can recall any Muslims speaking out to any great extent against 9/11, Spain's Bombing, anyone of Israel's hundreds of bombings, Iraq's road side bombs killing innocent Iraqis, and London's Bombing? I will tell you that if someone was blowing up innocent men, woman, and children in the name of my religion, I would be CONTINUALLY VERY LOUD AND OUTSPOKEN AGAINST THIS PRACTICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Generally speaking, silence and lack of protest is interpreted as acceptance. This is where I feel the main stream Islam and Muslim people get a bad reputation. I think if they really do think that sawing off a civilian's head on TV is bad and is something that they do not want to be associated with, wouldn't they try to make sure that people knew that?

    Then you see them burn innocent business owner's buildings to the ground because someone else drew a cartoon that they did not agree with. The passion is there to protest. But what does the world see them protest against (a cartoon)......and what do they see them NOT protest against (killing children in restaurants, sawing off innocent civilian's heads, bombing hospitals, killing 3,000 innocent people simply at their jobs in the Towers, etc....)?

    QUESTION OF THE DAY: How much harder would it be for AQ and other terrorist groups to operate if the same level of protests were done each time they attacked innocent men, woman, and children?

    .
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/05/2006 at 05:00 AM.
  5. eKeith's Avatar
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    #25  
    Very well said... except for your last statement that "Islam sucks".
    I would say that the muslims (i.e the people not the religion itself) that are too coward (i.e. essentially all) to stand up for peace and against the terrorists, they suck. From what I understand from my muslim friends, their interpretation of Islam is that it promotes peace...

    Different interpretations and ultimately extremist views of any religion can create the hate that causes these horrific acts. Remember it wasn't too long ago that Protestants and Catholics were killing each other over in Ireland. That doesn't make all Christianity itself suck, but just those people that interpret their religion and rationalize murder and terrorism...

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    So Muslims all around the world run to the nearest flag store to buy a Danish flag to burn because of a cartoon. Palestinians were chanting, "Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up". Others threatened to kidnap/kill Europeans if their countries didn't apologize. How bout an apology for your religion?

    So this is what you got to do to get Muslims attention?! The majority sits on their hands when brethren crash jets and kill innocent or cut off heads of innocents, but make fun of a religion that condones murdering people that's the last straw. The last statement about condoning murder stands until the majority of Muslims unite and stand up against the Muslim terrorists and prove otherwise.

    I am so unbelievably sick of Islam hypocrisy and the political correctness. They can hate us, but we should gratefully take the murdering, kidnapping, flag burning, moral turpitude, burning political figures in effigy (by the way that is really getting old, as is the millionth American flag burnt)...

    Till further notice Islam sucks.
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  6.    #26  
    ekeith Islam does suck until the supposive majority of Muslims rise up against the supposive radical minority. I think it is the other way around.

    If Muslims don't stop it from within, the rest of the world eventually will rise up.

    Hobbes, perfectly stated.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by eKeith
    From what I understand from my muslim friends, their interpretation of Islam is that it promotes peace...
    Mohammed commanded his disciples to use violence against those who reject Islam, yet he said violence should not be practiced in the name of religion (Koran 9:5,29 - pp102,111; cf. 2:256 - p32) .
    Islam gives the terrorists just what they want...the justification to kill for their religion. It also contradicts itself so muslims can say "we're a peaceful religion". Just like my earlier post...Mohammad contradicts himself and IMO is BS. But any non-Christian can say the same about Christianity.

    Kinda like when you hear someone say, "I'm an honest person...I don't lie" They are the ones you have to watch out for because they're probably the most dishonest. Any time someone says this in business without provocation (i.e. I didn't call them dishonest) it raises a flag immediately. Well, Islam is saying they're very peaceful and blowing stuff up at the same time...doesn't seem to work.
  8. #28  
    I've watched this thread grow over the last few days, waiting for a voice of reason. There was only one, in the form of ClarenceCM3. Much like a Palm/Pocketpc debate on 1src.com, this could benefit from a voice from the other side.

    I was brought up a Muslim, but was an atheist from an early age, as I could not get myself to believe in fairies, goblins and invisible flying Spagetti Monsters. So I may not be the best spokesman, but I probably have a better inside view than most of you.

    First things first, I dont buy the whole "religion of peace" thing either, but thats because I dont believe any religion can be peaceful. Most of the "peacefulness" if western religions are simply due to the growth of secularism. When Christianity was strong all kinds of atrocities were also being done in its name, such as the Salem witch hunts (1692) , Spanish Inquisition (1478) and burning of Bruno (1600). Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity, so have many more years to fade from power over its believers. One can as well ask, where were the Christians protesting against the Salem witch hunts etc?

    Secondly, Al Queda etc are not fighting against Christianity, but against secularism, which is of course very corrosive to religion, in that it permits all the temptations which religion forbids. Once one understand this its much simpler to understand their apparent illogical actions, and their attempt to get Muslim populations isolated from the rest of the world.

    Thirdly, a lot of the friction Muslims have with others is not due to religion, but tribalism and racisms. When seen in that context, incidents such as the burning of the Danish embassy is quite reminiscent of the L.A. riots than anything else.

    Lastly, regarding this specific incident, in Islam its generally forbidden to make a depiction of the prophet Mohamed. Just showing his face would have been offensive. To then make fun of him and depict him with a bomb in his turban is doubly offensive and provocative. By analogy, its similar to what one would expect from showing Jesus Christ having sex, upside down on a cross, in the 14th century. The reaction is quite understandable.

    Now, the solution is obvious. While Islamic traditions are strong we can expect to continue to see such incidents, and a reaction to the invasion of secularism. Religion obviously needs to be banned. Not just Islam, but Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism etc. As some-one once said, no one was ever killed in the name of Atheism. Maybe now is the time. I suggest we round up all the preachers and burn all the Holy Books. In a generation the world will be a much better place.

    Surur
  9. eKeith's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    ekeith Islam does suck until the supposive majority of Muslims rise up against the supposive radical minority...
    With that logic, then all religions, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam etc. all suck because every one has a radical minority (albeit to different extents) which the majority is unable to convert...
    ... and honestly, I can't disagree with that... anyone who justifies the murder of innocence falls into that category for me...
    Last edited by eKeith; 02/05/2006 at 08:02 PM.
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Islam gives the terrorists just what they want...the justification to kill for their religion. It also contradicts itself so muslims can say "we're a peaceful religion". Just like my earlier post...Mohammad contradicts himself and IMO is BS. But any non-Christian can say the same about Christianity...
    Agreed. The same is also true for the bible... full of contradictions which are the basis for radical behaviour...


    IMHO, as I mention in my previous post, any justification for the murder of innocence is a failure of man and religion...
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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by eKeith
    IMHO, as I mention in my previous post, any justification for the murder of innocence is a failure of man and religion...
    I don't know who could argue with that!
  12. #32  
    So...this doesn't seem very peaceful and it's fully accepted! This picture is taken in LONDON! Three signs with some hard messages. And as was pointed out earlier....fully accepted in the Islamic world...how can you sugar-coat this stuff and defend their religion?!

    Oh, and I wanted to add that this isn't just a few irate folks...this is happening all over the world! This IS their religion.

    Last edited by RicoM; 02/05/2006 at 09:46 AM.
  13. #33  
    Niiiiiice...
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  14. #34  
    Surur, perhaps you have forgotten about the millions upon millions of innocent people who were starved and/or slaughtered by people who held an atheistic dogma called Communism, based precisely on the tenets of that dogma. Atheists should remember this when discussing the 25 or so people executed as a result of the Salem witch trials.

    Further, your comparison of Islam and Christianity might hold water if all religions grew more peaceful on a general curve. This is not the case. Adherents of religions much older than Islam can be just as violent. Nor does it seem to be the case that secular influences make a religion less violent--note Hitler's Germany, Mao's China or Saddam's Iraq. Indeed, it appears some of the more violent groups within Islam in the past Century have risen out of the "secularist" Mulsim Brotherhood--Hamas for one. In fact, how could I neglect to mention that the "Golden Age" of Islam, the period people always point to as the time when Islam was a major contributor to arts, culture and general prosperity, was 700 or so years ago. So it seems to have grown more intolerant and violent over the years. No?
    Last edited by hoovs; 02/05/2006 at 09:56 AM.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM

    There's even a little kid in the front shouting and carrying on. Give him ten more years of this brainwashing, and he'll be packing explosives and walking into a Sbarro's pizza.
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Surur, perhaps you have forgotten about the millions upon millions of innocent people who were starved and/or slaughtered by people who held an atheistic dogma called Communism, based precisely on the tenets of that dogma. Atheists should remember this when discussing the 25 or so people executed as a result of the Salem witch trials.

    Further, your comparison of Islam and Christianity might hold water if all religions grew more peaceful on a general curve. This is not the case. Adherents of religions much older than Islam can be just as violent. Nor does it seem to be the case that secular influences make a religion less violent--note Hitler's Germany, Mao's China or Saddam's Iraq. Indeed, it appears some of the more violent groups within Islam in the past Century have risen out of the "secularist" Mulsim Brotherhood--Hamas for one. In fact, how could I neglect to mention that the "Golden Age" of Islam, the period people always point to as the time when Islam was a major contributor to arts, culture and general prosperity, was 700 or so years ago. So it seems to have grown more intolerant and violent over the years. No?
    People will always kill other people. The motivation is what is important. The people being killed and tortured in Iraq was not in the name of religion. The people being killed by the Spanish inquisition were. As was the Crusades for example. The people killed in 911 was certainly in the name of religion. There is a difference between being killed by some-one who happens to be a Moslem for invading their country, and being killed for being a Christian (although being dead you probably would not care much)

    In this half century (post WWII) many of the regional groups arose due to territorial disputes. Hamas is a perfect example of this. Al Queda is the only Islamic group I can think of currently with a pure ideological motivation for their war.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 02/05/2006 at 10:16 AM.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    There's even a little kid in the front shouting and carrying on. Give him ten more years of this brainwashing, and he'll be packing explosives and walking into a Sbarro's pizza.
    If only they'd spend a tenth of that energy helping out the families of a thousand dead Egyptians.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    People will always kill other people. The motivation is what is important. The people being killed and tortured in Iraq was not in the name of religion. The people being killed by the Spanish inquisition were. As was the Crusades for example. The people killed in 911 was certainly in the name of religion.
    That's only partly true. Just like Saddam's motives in Iraq, the Inquisitions were largely about retaining power and control. The Spanish Inquisition, arguably the worst, was not initiated by the Pope, but by Ferdinand in an attempt to extinguish Moorish rule in the south and consolodate the Spanish states.
  19. #39  
    Which just demonstrates how complex the whole story is. An atheist would see religion in the same way, as a method of social control, motivating and managing the masses.

    Surur
  20. #40  
    Considering the atrocities of the last Century, I'd say Atheists don't really have any room to boast.
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