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  1. #301  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    This attitude is why the atheist is so much more dangerous than the Islamist. The Islamist at least recognizes some limits upon his depravity. The humanist is not so restrained.
    You're not serious, are you? Islamistic terrorism does not seem to recognize a lot of limits in my view, and other dogmatic belief systems are (or were) not better in the least. Ever heard of Humanist Terrorists? The Agnostic Death Squad? It's fundamentalistic religion and quasi-religions like Nazi-ism or Communism which brings out the worst in conflicts, not absense of religion .
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #302  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It's just a tangent, but if there is indeed no chance of changing the future, then killing the baby would not make the future better anyway...
    Thank you. Which is why it's a bad hypothetical imperative in the first place. It contradicts itself. If I could not change the future by changing the mind of a young Hitler before it twisted then I also couldn't change the future by killing an infant Hitler.
  3. #303  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Thank you. Which is why it's a bad hypothetical imperative in the first place. It contradicts itself. If I could not change the future by changing the mind of a young Hitler before it twisted then I also couldn't change the future by killing an infant Hitler.
    Its a hypothetical question! If I asked you when two trains would meet if one left at 2:00 pm going south, and the other left at 4 going north, you would tell me Western Pacific is always late in any case, and that the train operators would notice before the collision occurs!

    Surur
  4. #304  
    Surur,

    Those are two different things. Hypothetical situations can't contradict each other--or else its not hypothetical.
  5. #305  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    These things you said are not just with religion...the ones you mentioned are examples of morally poor individuals that use religion as their method of abuse. I believe these individuals would be just as screwed up if they were not religious "freaks". And blanket statements like you made make me nauseas.
    Amen.
  6. #306  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Why wouldn't they be kicked out already? Didn't they have or have planned a conference on the lack of the jewish genocide of WWII?
    FIFA wants to seperate Sports from Politics. As FIFA said: "Its not the Iranian's fault that they have a crazy leader"
  7. #307  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Seems like redbelt wants it both ways. A thinly veiled stab at the US in Iraq, yet would appreciate help with Iran and WMDs.
    I can't do that? Things are not Black & White y'know.
    US in Iraq? Un justefied. the US even went against its basic pillar of democracy when it, against majority of the UN, launched the attack. undemocratic. tsk tsk..

    Iran however, carrying a NUKE, regardless of the threat to my country. may unbalance world order not to mention wreck havoc on world economics. OIL prices, attacks on Israel, Arab countries, former soviet states.. etc..
    This may be a new 3rd Reich and a seed to a world war. Its in everyone's interest that Iran doesn't.
  8. #308  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    You're not serious, are you? Islamistic terrorism does not seem to recognize a lot of limits in my view, and other dogmatic belief systems are (or were) not better in the least. Ever heard of Humanist Terrorists? The Agnostic Death Squad? It's fundamentalistic religion and quasi-religions like Nazi-ism or Communism which brings out the worst in conflicts, not absense of religion .
    Not only am I serious, but my point is so obvious I can't even believe you're seriously questioning it. I especially like how you redefine the humanist ideologies of Naziism and Communism as "quasi-religions". When Islamic terrorists kill 6 million Jews they'll be in the same league.

    No secular terrorists? Does the Red Army Faction ring a bell? Baader Meinhof Gang?

    The bulk of the good content of this thread has been a discussion of how the extremists pervert their religious beliefs - not faithfully live by them.
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    #309  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    I can't do that? Things are not Black & White y'know.
    US in Iraq? Un justefied. the US even went against its basic pillar of democracy when it, against majority of the UN, launched the attack. undemocratic. tsk tsk..

    Iran however, carrying a NUKE, regardless of the threat to my country. may unbalance world order not to mention wreck havoc on world economics. OIL prices, attacks on Israel, Arab countries, former soviet states.. etc..
    This may be a new 3rd Reich and a seed to a world war. Its in everyone's interest that Iran doesn't.
    Look at the situation without hindsight if you can. Pre invasion the vast majority of the world believed that Saddam either had or was very close to acquiring WMDs. Why is Iran being close to acquiring WMD worse than Iraq being close to acquiring WMDs? Saddam had history of launching WMDs against neighbors and fellow countrymen, is Iran different? Neither country has shown the ability to play by the rules set forth by the UN, (BTW, the UN has not shown the ability to resolve issues or foowow through on sanctions they impose) again where is the difference?
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  10. #310  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Pre invasion the vast majority of the world believed that Saddam either had or was very close to acquiring WMDs.
    Those who wanted to believe, did. Read Hans Blix's book. The UN inspectors had unlimited access to any place in Iraq (especially after US started building up it's troops in neighboring countries). They went to every site that CIA told them to check out, and found nothing.

    As for the rest of the world, they depend largely on the intelligence and analysis that US agencies provide. No one else has satellites or resources or access to raw intelligence like US does. They will believe (not anymore) whatever the Secretary of State tells them.
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  11. #311  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    No secular terrorists? Does the Red Army Faction ring a bell? Baader Meinhof Gang?
    Did they perpetrate their misdeeds with the primary aim of sqashing religion?

    The example that does come to mind is the butchering of Tibet by Chinese commies to supress their religion. I will grant that. But others, like Stalin, North Korean dictators comitted (and are comitting) genocide to retain power rather than to supress religion.

    The examples of religion-inspired savagery has more direct link to religious ferver. Most of the time it is misdeeds by one religious group against another. Shia vs. Sunni, Hindu vs. Muslim, Catholics vs. Protestants, Spanish inquisition, Christians vs. Muslims ... All done with the primary purpose of making fellow human beings switch their beliefs.

    I don't think Stalin or Kim Jong Il would have spared anyone if they turned into atheists!
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  12. #312  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    I don't think Stalin or Kim Jong Il would have spared anyone if they turned into atheists!
    Obviously. My point is that Hitler and his ilk murdered millions because he had no reason not to. His ideology (as is the ideology of Communism) was/is one of power without restraints. For the believer (who is not a nutjob) religion is that restraint upon human nature.
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  13. #313  
    The longer we talk about Iraq the more we ignore discussing the real issue.
  14. #314  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Iran however, carrying a NUKE, regardless of the threat to my country. may unbalance world order not to mention wreck havoc on world economics. OIL prices, attacks on Israel, Arab countries, former soviet states.. etc..
    This may be a new 3rd Reich and a seed to a world war. Its in everyone's interest that Iran doesn't.

    It's not in Iran's best interest to not have a nuke... or for the other middle eastern countries. The people in power there were put there with the help of the US

    Saddam
    Bin Laden
    Present Iraq government
    Shaw of Iran
    Israel Nation
    ????

    They are there to destablise the region until all the oil is ours!!!
    I can live with it I guess.... My musclecar is no fun in the garage.

    We all just need to understand what is really happening and why.
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  15. #315  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Did they perpetrate their misdeeds with the primary aim of sqashing religion?
    Islamic terrorist do not commit acts of terror in order to win converts. Al Qaeda's stated goal is to restore the Caliphate - to do so, the will of the West must be broken to the point that we will not or can not oppose them.

    Getting somewhat back on topic - I imagine the Muslim leaders who seem to be fanning the flames of the cartoon controversy do not have religious goals but rather primarily political aims.
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    #316  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    I can't do that? Things are not Black & White y'know.
    US in Iraq? Un justefied. the US even went against its basic pillar of democracy when it, against majority of the UN, launched the attack. undemocratic. tsk tsk..

    Iran however, carrying a NUKE, regardless of the threat to my country. may unbalance world order not to mention wreck havoc on world economics. OIL prices, attacks on Israel, Arab countries, former soviet states.. etc..
    This may be a new 3rd Reich and a seed to a world war. Its in everyone's interest that Iran doesn't.

    As far as your point on Iran, i think you are absolutely right. For crying out loud, they are broadcasting their intentions of developing nuclear capabilities not so much for more furthering themselves technologically, but rather for the purposes of "wiping Israel off the map". its obvious.

    Iran will most likely continue defying the world to the point of necessitating a global war. Terrorists will align with the Iranians and the two will join ultimately for a standoff with the rest of the world. It looks like its heading in this direction.
  17. #317  
    We all just need to understand what is really happening and why.
    Thanks for clarifying things for us.
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  18. #318  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Those who wanted to believe, did. Read Hans Blix's book. The UN inspectors had unlimited access to any place in Iraq (especially after US started building up it's troops in neighboring countries). They went to every site that CIA told them to check out, and found nothing.

    As for the rest of the world, they depend largely on the intelligence and analysis that US agencies provide. No one else has satellites or resources or access to raw intelligence like US does. They will believe (not anymore) whatever the Secretary of State tells them.
    ....man here it comes again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and.....

    With this point always coming up on a regular basis with several different approaches, I have replied to it in extreme detail several times over. Instead of requoting everything, Here are some links for you to review and respond in the appropiate Iraq threads where this has been hammered out over and over and over and over and over again...:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=289 -- WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...5&postcount=49 -- Blixt reports

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=290 -- Timeline of US policy on Iraq

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=202 -- World Intelligence of WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=206 -- World Intelligence of WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...6&postcount=47 -- Iraq accountability for WMDs lack of full disclosure of all their WMD activities

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=215 -- World Intelligence of WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=306 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=292 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=294 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=296 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=307 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...6&postcount=50 -- Should have gone after Iran instead of Iraq

    .
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/08/2006 at 09:36 PM.
  19. #319  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    For the believer (who is not a nutjob) religion is that restraint upon human nature.
    It becomes a tautological truth: "A true believer and religious person is the one who is not a nutcase".

    Unfortunately, during crazy times like religious riots, inquisition, etc etc, there are whole lot of nutjobs. I cannot separate religion from the behavior of it's followers.
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  20. #320  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    ....man here it comes again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and.....

    With this point always coming up on a regular basis with several different approaches, I have replied to it in extreme detail several times over.
    Make it a sticky :-)
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