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  1.    #281  
    You of all people should have a great gratitude towards USA. You would have been swallowed up by now if you didn't have a big brother protecting your country. btw, by command and conquer you keep the country. We have no plans on doing that. Comments like these make me want to build a huge wall around America and watch the rest of the world go to sh!t.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Nope. However, the US is doing that now!

    oh.. come to think of it, Iran would totally do it. And not in the good spirit that it was done in. Iran several times demanded the whole of my country as thiers. we had several riots and potential terrorists with clear leads to Iran. It also occupied several Emarati islands and claimed it as thier own and still did not return them.

    I would NOT like to see a NUKE in thier back pocket.
  2. #282  
    While I do acknowledge that the US military existance is needed to deter Iran, the US is mostly here to protect its invetments in the region.
    Iraq was simply crucial to the US to keep an eye on Iran and be closer to Israel, protect its investments & oil and have more leverage in the region. THIS reason makes more sense than removing Saddam "to spread Freedom & liberate Iraq" (so charitable!), because there are alot of places that are freedom starved and I don't see the US anywhere near.
  3. #283  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Agreed on what has happened in the past, now what about the present and the future.

    Answer this question with an answer, not another history lesson...

    Does Islam plan on practicing this technique of 'command and conquer' now and in the future?
    I believe they are right now. We need to look at other countries outside of the West. In majority Muslim countries there is heavy persecution on religious minorities. There is a great push, for example, to either drive Coptic Christians from Egypt or convert them. There's a similar push against Christians as well as Ahmediyya Muslims in Pakistan and Indonesia (whome the majority Sunni population see as blasphemers). The same for Shi'a Muslims in Saudi Arabia. The same for Sunni Muslims in Iran. Sufi Muslims were under a heavy "proselytization" effort (i.e. convert or die) under the Taliban. Just a small example.
  4. #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Did you have any specific parts in that link...or the whole thing in general? I'm curious to what I'm looking for
    The points in bold. It was mainly an answer to an earlier question from Advance the Man.
  5. #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I believe they are right now. We need to look at other countries outside of the West. In majority Muslim countries there is heavy persecution on religious minorities. There is a great push, for example, to either drive Coptic Christians from Egypt or convert them. There's a similar push against Christians as well as Ahmediyya Muslims in Pakistan and Indonesia (whome the majority Sunni population see as blasphemers). The same for Shi'a Muslims in Saudi Arabia. The same for Sunni Muslims in Iran. Sufi Muslims were under a heavy "proselytization" effort (i.e. convert or die) under the Taliban. Just a small example.
    In poorer countries its quite common to have persecution of minorities. Doesn't mean it would transfer to the west.

    Surur
  6. #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    In poorer countries its quite common to have persecution of minorities. Doesn't mean it would transfer to the west.

    Surur
    Saudi is a rich country. The clerics who push the persecution are all pretty well-funded. Iran is not a poor country. The issue isn't money but power. It won't translate to the West because they don't have any power.
  7. #287  
    Sigh. You are probably right. There are too many radical preachers, and too many people blaming all ills on everyone else, including minorities (Nazi-like) and America of course. (This is the impression I get from the media, not personal experience). I hope I have shown that this isn't necessarily inherent in the religion however, and things have been better (and worse) in the past.

    Surur
  8. #288  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Sigh. You are probably right. There are too many radical preachers, and too many people blaming all ills on everyone else, including minorities (Nazi-like) and America of course. (This is the impression I get from the media, not personal experience). I hope I have shown that this isn't necessarily inherent in the religion however, and things have been better (and worse) in the past.

    Surur
    No, not necessarily.....but apparently
  9. #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    While I do acknowledge that the US military existance is needed to deter Iran, the US is mostly here to protect its invetments in the region.
    Iraq was simply crucial to the US to keep an eye on Iran and be closer to Israel, protect its investments & oil and have more leverage in the region. THIS reason makes more sense than removing Saddam "to spread Freedom & liberate Iraq" (so charitable!)
    This is true in just about any situation you look at in History. For example, France didn't help the Americans in the Revolution for years until Benjamin Franklin finally convinced them that they could get a jab in at England....and they also thought that they might get to claim a nice piece of the spoils at the end.

    But look at the obvious differences in History. Prime example.....Japan & Germany conquered and kept what they conquered and intended to keep for ever. They purposely abused the conquered people and took their wealth for their gain. The allies conquered both of them and let them go WITH aid to rebuild from the war that they started. Sure we, the US, had a self interest in freeing all of the countries in the EU, one big one being we didn't want a Hitler running half of the world. Heck if he had gone into the Middle East before going into Russia (as he was advised to do)....that may actually have been a reality. A Hitler nation from the British Isles to the Bering Strait. But again....even though we had a self interest we also did what was best for everyone concerned, not just us. We did not keep our spoils, freed all the countries conquered.

    We also had a self interest in Iraq. All the world's intel was telling us Saddam either had WMDs or would very soon. National Security. Iran has always been itching to go toe to toe with the US, setting up a pro US democracy gov in Iraq would offer stability in the region. Economic and National Security. Relieving Saddam who has used WMDs, reported by the world's intel he may have them again, and who has fired on Israel, offers additional security for Israel. Benefit to our Allie. These are just some of the self interests that we have.

    What the US is NOT doing with their spoils in Iraq. Occupying the country they defeated, having a Puerto Rico type situation would be very financially advantageous for the US. Like you said Iran has done and would do and like Saddam tried to do. Claiming all their oil wells as ours. Like Saddam tried to do with Kuwait. Dictating the form of government they MUST use, i.e carbon copy of our constitution. We set deadlines where they must come up with their own government dictated by and voted on by themselves. As a result we did stop systematic killings, institutionalized rape rooms with gov appointed rapers, mass executions for differing points of view, torture of woman and child to spite the father and/or husband, etc....

    There is nothing wrong acting in owns best interest, as long as you are responsibly looking out for the welfare and benefits of others in the process. That is just smart and humane. And as result you will get extra security for your nation against Iran at our expense.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/07/2006 at 09:51 PM.
  10. #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    because there are alot of places that are freedom starved and I don't see the US anywhere near.
    First of all, how do you eat an elephant?

    There are a lot of factors that come into play with a blanket statement like this. The UN is a big one. Why are they not acting......maybe having having dictator regimes on the board over humanitarian issues, of which they are the highest offenders of is a part of it.

    Also the willingness to support or block such efforts by Germany, France, China, and Russia play a big role.

    This is not a US only issue.
  11. #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Religion = source of almost all hot points and conflicts in the world.
    Yep...I believe 80% of all wars in the history of the world have been due to religion. It's a shame... as Bill Maher says... all this over a "fairy tale"....

    Think, if religion didnt exist (i.e. believers) , what would they fight over then???? It would put alot of people out of business... The Vatican, etc....

    How many bell tower snipers have we seen over the years... "God made me do it...".... To be honest, "religious" people scare the crap out of me. They justify everything "God told me, etc...) on something MAN MADE...

    and you gotta love Pat Robertson... lol... oh yes, Jessie Jackson....Jerry Falwell... Ernest Angsley (what a hoot!! ) the list goes on and on.... not to mention, these guys are multimillionaires because most people can't use their common sense.. they NEED someone to tell them what to do, etc...

    oh... how about the "pastor" today THROWING puppies into ditches, roadside from a pick-up truck.....

    A bunch of hypocrites...period... makes me nausea.
    Last edited by TripleNickle; 02/07/2006 at 10:08 PM.
  12. #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleNickle
    Yep...I believe 80% of all wars in the history of the world have been due to religion. It's a shame... as Bill Maher says... all this over a "fairy tale"....

    Think, if religion didnt exist (i.e. believers) , what would they fight over then???? It would put alot of people out of business... The Vatican, etc....

    How many bell tower snipers have we seen over the years... "God made me do it...".... To be honest, "religious" people scare the crap out of me. They justify everything "God told me, etc...) on something MAN MADE...

    and you gotta love Pat Robertson... lol... oh yes, Jessie Jackson....Jerry Falwell... Ernest Angsley (what a hoot!! ) the list goes on and on.... not to mention, these guys are multimillionaires because most people can't use their common sense.. they NEED someone to tell them what to do, etc...

    oh... how about the "pastor" today THROWING puppies into ditches, roadside from a pick-up truck.....

    A bunch of hypocrites...period... makes me nausea.

    I don't know what town you live in. It sounds pretty scary. Or, maybe you just need to get out more. What would it be like if there were no religion? Well, we don't have to guess. We can just look at the former Soviet Union or China or North Korea.

    Yeah, sounds like a real hoot!
  13. #293  
    Do your part, but Carlsberg beer.

    http://www.buydanish.dk/
  14. #294  
    Wow...you have some hard feelings there....now breeeatth...relaaaxxe...

    Quote Originally Posted by TripleNickle
    Yep...I believe 80% of all wars in the history of the world have been due to religion. It's a shame... as Bill Maher says... all this over a "fairy tale"....
    That's a nice stat...I know you said "believe" and that gives you a check to say whatever. But 80%? World War 1, 2, Korean War, Civil War, hmm...let me think about it. Has ANY war in the US been over religion?


    Quote Originally Posted by TripleNickle
    Think, if religion didnt exist (i.e. believers) , what would they fight over then???? It would put alot of people out of business... The Vatican, etc....
    Well...the Vatican's business isn't fighting...but in a simplistic way you are correct. If religion didn't exist, the Vatican would be out of business. (I think this is really the only correct statement you made).

    Quote Originally Posted by TripleNickle
    How many bell tower snipers have we seen over the years... "God made me do it...".... To be honest, "religious" people scare the crap out of me. They justify everything "God told me, etc...) on something MAN MADE...
    I don't know...I've heard of a couple..can you tell me how many? And then since you're finding that out..can you find out how many mass murderors did it without God even being a part of their reasoning? No? Ok..so then we can agree that wackos are wackos no matter of religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by TripleNickle
    and you gotta love Pat Robertson... lol... oh yes, Jessie Jackson....Jerry Falwell... Ernest Angsley (what a hoot!! ) the list goes on and on.... not to mention, these guys are multimillionaires because most people can't use their common sense.. they NEED someone to tell them what to do, etc...
    Nope, not gonna defend Jessie Jackson.... But as for the list going on and on....Pope John Paul, Mother Teresa, Rev Martin Luther King, yeah, the list does go on.
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleNickle
    oh... how about the "pastor" today THROWING puppies into ditches, roadside from a pick-up truck.....
    Didn't hear about this.... There's misguided people everywhere...what about the PETA people in Virginia that were "adopting" animals and then killing them. They tried to find homes b/c they thought they could do it better than the shelters and when they couldn't they killed them themselves and lied about finding homes to make PETA look good. They then kept "adopting" more animals and kept the cycle going.

    Quote Originally Posted by TripleNickle
    A bunch of hypocrites...period... makes me nausea.
    Ditto on your post! Let me quote someone else....'How can you say to your brother, "Let me remove that splinter from your eye", while the wooden beam is in your eye'. These things you said are not just with religion...the ones you mentioned are examples of morally poor individuals that use religion as their method of abuse. I believe these individuals would be just as screwed up if they were not religious "freaks". And blanket statements like you made make me nauseas.
    Last edited by RicoM; 02/08/2006 at 06:46 AM.
  15. #295  
    It's a cold crewl world and only the strong survive... I think it would be much better had bush Sr and the CIA not trained bin Laden and Saddam.

    There are a lot of things in the world controlled by very powerful people for very specific reasons, religion is used to mobilize the masses just like 9/11 is used to rally americans to fight the war on terror. If it was not for the nuke issue in Iran, I bet we would be (secretly) planning to strike Iran in search of bin laden.... He will never be caught, why?
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    .Treo Pro on Sprint Check out www.treotricks.com, Audio jack fix.
  16. #296  
    Their calls were echoed by members of Afghanistan's top Islamic cleric's group on Wednesday, who went on radio and television to appeal for calm.

    "Islam says it's all right to demonstrate but not to resort to violence. This must stop," senior cleric Mohammed Usman told AP. "We condemn the cartoons but this does not justify violence. These rioters are defaming the name of Islam."
    This is a start in the right direction!

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...sts/index.html
  17. #297  
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...0.html?cnn=yes

    A quick article on the double standards (or hypocrisy if you will) of islam.

    These double standards reveal something quite clear: this call for "sensitivity" is primarily a cover for intolerance of others and intimidation of free people.
  18. #298  
    what about U.S. Hypocrisy?

    Fighing the war on terror but harboring a known terrorist that bombed a Cuban jetliner

    Fighting the war on terror but selling arms to Iran to fund a revolution in South America

    Fighting the war on drugs but selling drugs again to fund a war.

    US has divided countries to build a canal and also to buy bananas...
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    .Treo Pro on Sprint Check out www.treotricks.com, Audio jack fix.
  19.    #299  
    Start a thread on conspiracies.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonobeez
    what about U.S. Hypocrisy?

    Fighing the war on terror but harboring a known terrorist that bombed a Cuban jetliner

    Fighting the war on terror but selling arms to Iran to fund a revolution in South America

    Fighting the war on drugs but selling drugs again to fund a war.

    US has divided countries to build a canal and also to buy bananas...
  20. #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    The thing is that its a bad example of a hypothetical imperative. The only conceivable answer is that if I could see into the future and if I had no chance of changing the future then it would, in some instances, be okay to kill a baby.
    It's just a tangent, but if there is indeed no chance of changing the future, then killing the baby would not make the future better anyway...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)

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