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  1. cardio's Avatar
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    #261  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Ahem, please note:

    WTC occupants did not attack muslims
    Also
    Muslims did not attack WTC

    Terrorists did.

    yes, Alqaeda came up with slogans and took the blame, so? a rose by any name is still a terrorist.
    I fully agree, I was simply replying to the post referring to what Mohammad would approve of. It is pretty well accepted that the terrorist that attacked the WTC followed radical islamic beliefs, that does not indicate that Islam attacked the WTC, in the same sense that the individuals who attacked abortionist and claimed to be christian indicate that Christians attack abortionist.

    I applaud your stance on the rioters, terrorists, suicide bombers etc who give the Islamic faith such a poor name. I wish there were more individuals like yourself who would stand up to those who murder in the name of religion.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  2.    #262  
    One down, Two billion to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I wish there were more individuals like yourself who would stand up to those who murder in the name of religion.
  3. cardio's Avatar
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    #263  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    "IRAN'S largest selling newspaper announced today it was holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed."

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117....html?from=rss

    In West Palm Beach, elderly Jewish women were seen burning Persian rugs in protest. Meanwhile, people across America protested by jamming roads and highways burning Iran's leading export.
    So in the eyes of the fanatical muslims will this give jewish fanatics freedom to attack mosques?
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  4. #264  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    So in the eyes of the fanatical muslims will this give jewish fanatics freedom to attack mosques?

    They hope.
  5. #265  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I applaud your stance on the rioters, terrorists, suicide bombers etc who give the Islamic faith such a poor name. I wish there were more individuals like yourself who would stand up to those who murder in the name of religion.
    Thank you
    I am hardly alone. If you do read arabic, I could send you links to articles in todays papers in Bahrain. CAIR is also doing something called "not in my name" I beleive.
    Still. whatever stand we do, it would def. hold alot less interest to the media than something that burns or gets vandelized, I'm sure you'll agree.
  6. cardio's Avatar
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    #266  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Thank you
    I am hardly alone. If you do read arabic, I could send you links to articles in todays papers in Bahrain. CAIR is also doing something called "not in my name" I beleive.
    Still. whatever stand we do, it would def. hold alot less interest to the media than something that burns or gets vandelized, I'm sure you'll agree.
    While you are not alone, the leaders need to take a stand, not just empty words, but put action behind the words.

    Absolutely agree, goods news does not sell papers so the bad news or sensationalism gets the print.

    Unfortunately I do not read arabic, I was able to pick up limited vocabulary during my time in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and UAE.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  7. #267  
    Now, if we can just get to closure on that "Invitation or Annihilation" approach to religious expansion....
  8.    #268  
    That was very odd. I wonder if that was true?

    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Now, if we can just get to closure on that "Invitation or Annihilation" approach to religious expansion....
  9. #269  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    That was very odd. I wonder if that was true?
    Yes, it is true. There are several good academic sources for this; I'll try to look some up.
  10. #270  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Now, if we can just get to closure on that "Invitation or Annihilation" approach to religious expansion....
    Lets look at a real example. A bit long, but worth the read.

    Muslim Spain
    Main article: Al-Andalus
    In the 8th century, nearly all the Iberian peninsula, which had been under Visigothic rule, was quickly conquered (from 711), by Muslims (the Moors), who had crossed over from North Africa. Visigothic Spain was the last of a series of Christian countries conquered in a great westward charge from the Middle East and across north Africa by the religiously inspired armies of the Umayyad empire. Indeed this onslaught continued northwards until it was decisively defeated in central France at the Battle of Tours in 732. Astonishingly the invasion started off as an invitation from a Visgothic faction within Spain for support. But instead of returning to Africa after successfully assisting their allies, the Berber army turned on its hosts and conquered the Visigothic capital of Toledo. Only three small counties in the north of Spain managed to cling to their independence: Asturias, Navarra and Aragon, which eventually became kingdoms.


    The Age of the Islamic EmpireDespite internal discord, the Muslim emirate proved strong in its first three centuries - was able to stop Charlegmagne's massive forces at Saragossa and, after suffering a massive Viking surprise attack, was able to quickly establish effective defences at a time when they were the terror of Europe. The Christian kingdoms were able to seize the empty lands north of the Duero river from their mountain redoubts and the Franks were able to seize Barcelona (801) and nearby areas (Spanish Marches), but for these and some other small incursions in the north the Christians were unable to make headway against the superior forces of Al-Andalus for several centuries. War settled into a pattern of raids and retaliations. It was only in the 11th century, when Muslim Spain split into small warring kingdoms that the small Christian kingdoms were able to make large, sustained advances southward. At this time a free for all fight involving alliances and divisions, that barely respected religious lines, developed among the Muslim and Christian kingdoms. In trying to increase their status the Muslim taifa kings competed in patronage of the arts, and the Jewish population of Iberia set the basis of Sephardic culture. The distinctiveness of much Spanish art originates from the Muslim influence of this period, and many Arabic words made their way into Castilian (Spanish) and Catalan, and from them to other European languages. Later, even as Muslim Spain retreated southward, Mozarabs (Christians who spoke an Iberian tongue but used the Arabic alphabet to write it) and converts to Christianity brought with them the art and architecture of Muslim Spain into the Christian north.

    The Moorish capital was Córdoba, in the southern portion of Spain known as Andalucía. During the time of Arab occupation, large populations of Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in close quarters, and at its peak some non-Muslims were appointed to high offices. At its best it produced exquisite architecture and art, and Muslim and Jewish scholars played a great part in reviving the study of ancient Greek and Roman culture and philosophy. However there were also restrictions and prohibitions on non-Muslims, which tended to grow after the death of Al-Hakam II in 976. Later invasions of stricter Muslim groups from north Africa led to persecutions of non-Muslims, forcing some (including Muslim scholars) to seek safety in the then still relatively tolerant city of Toledo after its Christian reconquest in 1085.

    Spanish society under Muslim rule became increasingly complex. This is partly because Islamic conquest did not involve the systematic conversion of the conquered population to Islam. Islam restricted the ability of Muslim rulers to tax other Muslims, making it financially advantageous for a ruler to have non-Muslim subjects. At the same time, Christians and Jews were recognized under Islam as “peoples of the book.” Christianity and Judaism shared with Islam the tradition of the Old Testament, and Islam considered Jesus Christ a major prophet (though this is not to say that there were no social tensions). Most importantly of all, the Islamic Berber and Arab invaders were a small minority, ruling over a few million Christians. Thus, Christians and Jews were free to practice their religion, but they had to pay a prescribed poll tax. They were not permitted to build new churches or synagogues. Clothing conventions were used to mark them out. Conversion to Islam proceeded slowly but steadily as it offered social and economic advantages to converts. By the end of the 10th century the majority of Al-Andalus, of which the vast majority were pre-Arab Spaniards, had been converted.

    The Roman Catholic Church in Muslim Spain continued to function, although it lost contact with religious reforms in Rome. Muslim Spain came to include a growing number of Mozarabic Christians, people who adopted Arabic script and culture and preserved the old Visigothic rites that differed from those of Rome. In addition Jews held prominent positions in commerce and the professions and under some Muslim rulers and sometimes even positions in government.

    The Muslim community in Spain was itself diverse and beset by social tensions, which was ultimately to be one of the principle causes of the fall of Al-Andalus. From the beginning the Berber tribespeople, of North Africa who had provided the bulk of the soldiers, clashed with the Arabs of Egypt and the Middle East who formed the ruling elite. The Berbers, who were comparatively recent converts to Islam, accounted for the largest share of Moors in Spain and they resented the sophistication and aristocratic pretensions of the Arab elite. They soon gave up attempting to settle the harsh lands of the northern reaches of the Meseta Central handed to them by the Arab elite, and, complaining of Arab duplicity, many returned to Africa during a Berber uprising against Arab rule. Meanwhile many Christians in Spain, including Visigothic nobles, converted to Islam. Conversion was commonplace among merchants, large landowners, and other local elites. Drawn into the politics of Islamic power, many Christians found that conversion made it easier to maintain their influence.

    Muslim Spain was wealthy and sophisticated under Islamic rule. Córdoba was the richest and most sophisticated city in all of western Europe. It was not until the 12th century that western medieval Christiandom only began to reach comparable levels of sophistication. Mediterranean trade and cultural exchange flourished. Muslims imported a rich intellectual tradition from the Middle East and North Africa, including knowledge about mathematics, science, and they helped revive in Europe the Greek philosophical tradition, which they continued to build upon in Spain. Crops and farming techniques introduced by the Arabs, including new irrigation practices, led to a remarkable expansion of agriculture that had been in decline since late Roman times. In towns and cities the Muslims constructed magnificent mosques, palaces, and other architectural monuments, many of which still stand today. Outside the cities the mixture of large estates and small farms that existed in Roman times remained largely intact, because Muslim leaders rarely dispossessed landowners. The Muslim conquerors were relatively few in number and so they generally tried to maintain good relations with their subjects (there were exceptions), though this relative social peace broke down with the stricter, and therefore intolerant, Muslim sects that arrived from the end of the 11th century.

    Roman, Jewish, and Muslim culture interacted in complex ways. A large part of the population gradually adopted Arabic. Even Jews and Christians often spoke Arabic, while Hebrew and Latin were frequently written in Arabic script. These diverse traditions interchanged in ways that gave Spanish culture — religion, literature, music, art and architecture, and writing systems — a rich and distinctive heritage.

    Life in Muslim Spain was very different from life in contemporary Christian Spain. Arabic was the official language of government, commerce and scholarship in Muslim controlled areas of Spain, and the majority of the population, including Christians and Jews, now spoke it, though many were bilingual. By the end of the 10th century the majority of the population had been converted to Islam. However as the 11th century drew to a close most of the north and center of Spain was back under Christian control.

    The Fall of Muslim Rule


    The long, convoluted period of expansion of the Christian kingdoms, beginning in 722, only eleven years after the Moorish invasion, is called the Reconquista. As early as 739, the north-western region of Galicia, which became one of the most important centres of western medieval Christian pilgrimage (Santiago de Compostela), had been liberated from Moorish occupation by forces from neighbouring Asturias. The 1085 conquest of the central city of Toledo had largely brought to an end the reconquest of the northern half of Spain. In 1086 the Almoravids, an ascetic Islamic sect from Africa, quickly conquered the small Moorish states in the south and then launched an invasion in which they captured the east coast as far north as Saragossa. This Islamic revival was short-lived, as by the middle of the 12th century the Almoravid empire had collapsed. The Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa in 1212 heralded the collapse of the great Moorish strongholds, such as Seville and Córdoba, in the south. By the middle of the 13th century most of the Iberian peninsula had been reconquered, leaving only Granada as a small tributary state in the south. It clung to its peripheral existence for two and half centuries when in 1492 Isabella and Ferdinand captured the southern city of Granada, the last Moorish city in Spain. The Treaty of Granada [1] guaranteed religious tolerance toward Muslims while Jews were expelled that year. At Ferdinand's urging the Spanish Inquisition had been established in 1482. Behind much real religious intolerance was always the fear that the local Muslims might assist another Muslim invasion. Also Aragonese labourers were angered by landlords use of Moorish workers to undercut them. A 1499 Muslim uprising, triggered by forced conversions, was crushed and was followed by the first of the expulsions of Muslims, in 1502. The year 1492 was also marked by the discovery of the New World. Isabella I funded the voyages of Christopher Columbus. In their contests with the French army in the Italian Wars, Spanish forces under Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba eventually achieved success, against the French knights, thereby revolutionizing warfare. The combined Spanish kingdoms of Castile and Aragon emerged as a European great power.

    The reconquest from the Muslims is one of the most significant events in Spanish history since the fall of the Roman Empire. Arabic quickly lost its place in southern Spain's everyday life, and was replaced by Castilian. In the south the process of conversion was reversed from the 13th century: the majority Muslim population was gradually converted to Roman Catholicism. The mosques and synagogues were converted into churches.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...3#Muslim_Spain

    Surur
  11. #271  
    Another write-up from the same period.

    SPAIN: Muslim Spain


    John Heelan writes: "Al-Andalus is of particular interest to me in my research into the cultural and literary impacts of that period on later Spain; I can confirm that many Arabic-speaking scholars have consulted the "local Spanish archives of the Muslim period" and that the University of Granada (among others) has had strong research interests in the field since the early 1930s.

    Undoubtedly, as in any multicultural community, there would be ethnic tensions. Los Angeles and New York are probably good contemporary examples. Regarding the coexistence of Muslims, Christians and Jews in the early days of al-Andalus, I refer you to the work of the American historian Richard W. Bulliet who calculated the "Curve of Conversion" to Islam [quoted by Richard Fletcher in his book Moorish Spain (1992)]. Fletcher comments (p.37) "Let us take these findings as a working hypothesis. By about 800 only some 8% of the indigenous population of Al-Andalus had become Muslims. This had risen to about 12.5% by the middle of the ninth century...... by the year 1000 the proportion stood at something like 75%". It is no accident that the bulk of conversions appear to have happened in the later part of the Caliphate and consequent on the arrival of the fresh waves of the more evangelising Almoravides and Almohades.

    Fletcher comments (p.36) "...Conversion of Islam would come about not by means of missionary pressure but through the nudging of other social forces of a kind which tend to be inconspicuous to the historian". Such as inter-marriage, opportunities of employment, following the lead of a prominent person. Fletcher comments "The process is self-reinforcing, for the consequent diminution and demoralisation of the non-ruling communities will stimulate further defections".

    The relatively peaceful coexistence seems to have lasted some 200-400 years. Fletcher comments (p.94) "It is difficult to know what the day-to-day relations of Christians and Arabs may have been in the cities of al-Andalus. They lived side-by-side. In some cities the Mozarabs inhabited distinct Christian quarters of the town, in others they seem to have lived intermingled with their Muslim neighbours. They were brought together in the mundane affairs of daily life.... Another source (from Andalusi archives) casts a fascinating ray of light on the matter of intercommunal relations when it reveals that certain among the better-off Muslims were accustomed to use Christian monasteries as wine-bars where they could drop in for a tincture of the liquid forbidden to them under Islamic law".

    The Muslim conversion process was very different to the torture, autos-da-fe and the mass expulsions practised by the Inquisition in the Christian conversion process. (Other fine works in the area are Islamic Spain 1200-1500 (1990) by L.P.Harvey and Huellas del Islam en la literatura española (1989) by Luce López-Baralt"--

    RH: I am grateful for this information, but Granada is known for promoting the Arab viewpoint, and clearly Arabs depict their regime in Spain as tolerant. I stick by my statement. The well-known historian lof Spain, Stanley Payne, says : "Your reply to Heelan was on the money. The "myth of Al Andalus" was first developed by 19th-century Spanish liberals. Its most recent expression is the new book by the Yale professor of Spanish Maria Rosa Menocal, The Ornament of the World (2002).

    Ronald Hilton - 2/18/03
    http://wais.stanford.edu/Spain/spain...pain21803.html

    Surur
  12. #272  
    Surur
    Your great! you love to read huh?

    I would not say "Invitation or Annihilation" as someone said. Look at it this way:
    The invetation part is agreed upon, if they wanna join good
    its the forced join that people seem to not understand
    There are several reasons for the need of this
    1) you needed to do this to preach this religion to more people, as you cannot do that under an uncooperative rule
    2) Islam came with amazing breakthrough guidlines in law & human rights for example. Women were killed at birth in olden Arabia and slavery was common. It was imperative for towns and countries to convert (at least in ruling) in order to liberate slaves, women and introduce a plathora of other improvments. Non of the people were forced to convert of course. However, non muslims were requiered to pay a form of tax. Muslims already pay zakat and both go to the (house of money) which is used to pay for the country's expenses. Islam also introduced the concept of democracy which was unheard of back then.
    3) lastly, the religion expands further with Word of Mouth. Good marketing that
  13.    #273  
    The question is does Islam still plan on practicing this technique of 'command and conquer'. If so the WORLD will have a huge problem with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Surur
    Your great! you love to read huh?

    I would not say "Invitation or Annihilation" as someone said. Look at it this way:
    The invetation part is agreed upon, if they wanna join good
    its the forced join that people seem to not understand
    There are several reasons for the need of this
    1) you needed to do this to preach this religion to more people, as you cannot do that under an uncooperative rule
    2) Islam came with amazing breakthrough guidlines in law & human rights for example. Women were killed at birth in olden Arabia and slavery was common. It was imperative for towns and countries to convert (at least in ruling) in order to liberate slaves, women and introduce a plathora of other improvments. Non of the people were forced to convert of course. However, non muslims were requiered to pay a form of tax. Muslims already pay zakat and both go to the (house of money) which is used to pay for the country's expenses. Islam also introduced the concept of democracy which was unheard of back then.
    3) lastly, the religion expands further with Word of Mouth. Good marketing that
  14. #274  
    According to a group of researchers from Morehead State University, there are "usually three process involved in creating the distribution of religion: diffusion, migration, and competition for space." 24 Islam used all three of these processes when it expanded from its core in Medina. After the death of the Prophet, Muslims conquered Iran in 641 C.E., followed a year later by the conquest of Egypt. By the 8th century, Muslims had expanded to all of North Africa, the Iberian Penninsula, India, and Indonesia. 25 As Muslims migrated to various regions, they employed two methods of establishing converts, "contagious contact and hierarchical(force)." 26 Contagious contact theory suggests that two groups of people in close contact will eventually merge or adapt to the other, through marriage or simply unification purposes. In much of the region that Islam initially expanded, the other groups were highly chaotic and/or apathetic, so Islam offered them a means of unity and organization. The other method was by force or political association. This was especially prevalent during the reign of the Ottoman Empire. Islam reached the peak of its unified geographical distribution during the Ottoman Empire (1520-1564), when Islam penetrated the furthest it ever had into Western Europe, conquering Belgrade and Vienna.

    Islam maintained a peculiar pattern of growth, one that expanded almost entirely around the globe, but was extremely narrow in it's latitudinal expansion. I venture to guess that the reason for this is that Islam successfully expanded into territories that were not pre-exposed to or dominated by one of the other major world religions. These regions were often less developed and could be conquered more easily. As Muslims tried to expand further north into Asia and Europe they were more often met with defeat, as was the case at the Battle of Tours in France in 732. 27 . The historical maps provided by Barbara R. von Schlegell at the University of Pennsylvania are a fantastic way to follow the rate and geographic distribution of Islamic expansion.
    http://religiousmovements.lib.virgin...rms/islam.html
  15. #275  
    Did you have any specific parts in that link...or the whole thing in general? I'm curious to what I'm looking for
  16. #276  
    I wonder how much of the conquest was to spread religion, and how much was simply expanding the empire. I mean, did the British conquer 25% of the globe to spread Christianity (one of the many distinct consequences) or simply to increase the size of their empire and secure resources etc?

    To be realistic, which Islamic group could potentially convert any region to Islam by conquest? There are none that have the military power, and you cant hold territory by terrorism. I dont see anyone coming to your door in the USA and converting you to Islam at the barrel of a gun.

    I think people in the west are particularly concerned about the "Contagious contact theory suggests that two groups of people in close contact will eventually merge or adapt to the other, through marriage or simply unification purposes.". Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and currently (as practiced) does not appear to be compatible with the western ideal.

    I think people should chill out, as historically these fears usually end up to be ungrounded.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 02/07/2006 at 03:40 PM.
  17.    #277  
    Agreed on what has happened in the past, now what about the present and the future.

    Answer this question with an answer, not another history lesson...

    Does Islam plan on practicing this technique of 'command and conquer' now and in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I wonder how much of the conquest was to spread religion, and how much was simply expanding the empire. I mean, did the British conquer 25% of the globe to spread Christianity (one of the many distinct consequences) or simply to increase the size of their empire and secure resources etc?

    To be realistic, which Islamic group could potentially convert any region to Islam by conquest? There are none that have the military power, and you cant hold territory by terrorism. I dont see anyone coming to your door in the USA and converting you to Islam at the barrel of a gun.

    I think people in the west are particularly concerned about the "Contagious contact theory suggests that two groups of people in close contact will eventually merge or adapt to the other, through marriage or simply unification purposes.". Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and currently (as practiced) does not appear to be compatible with the western ideal.

    I think people should chill out, as historically these fears usually end up to be ungrounded.

    Surur
  18. #278  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    The question is does Islam still plan on practicing this technique of 'command and conquer'. If so the WORLD will have a huge problem with this.
    Nope. However, the US is doing that now!

    oh.. come to think of it, Iran would totally do it. And not in the good spirit that it was done in. Iran several times demanded the whole of my country as thiers. we had several riots and potential terrorists with clear leads to Iran. It also occupied several Emarati islands and claimed it as thier own and still did not return them.

    I would NOT like to see a NUKE in thier back pocket.
  19. #279  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Nope. However, the US is doing that now!

    oh.. come to think of it, Iran would totally do it. And not in the good spirit that it was done in. Iran several times demanded the whole of my country as thiers. we had several riots and potential terrorists with clear leads to Iran. It also occupied several Emarati islands and claimed it as thier own and still did not return them.

    I would NOT like to see a NUKE in thier back pocket.
    Interstingly, the US' willingness to "do that now" is likely the primary force that will keep Iran's "back pocket" NUKE-less.
  20. cardio's Avatar
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    #280  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Interstingly, the US' willingness to "do that now" is likely the primary force that will keep Iran's "back pocket" NUKE-less.
    Seems like redbelt wants it both ways. A thinly veiled stab at the US in Iraq, yet would appreciate help with Iran and WMDs.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"

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