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  1. #241  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Alot of responses for one day! lets see:

    1) Who says there are no outrage against terrorists? I for one am extreemly against it. It is immoral, criminal, useless and further more, gives reason to have my religions name tarnished. I do not run to the streets however to burn something because I rather debate, educate & discuss that matter. Its not like having a protest will stop some nameless person from blowing himself up. What did I do about the cartoons? I stopped supporting Danish products. Many will think thats stupid, but if they say its freedom of speech, I have, as a consumer, freedom of choice and I am fully excersizing it.

    2) There are no excuses to riot, period. I am fully on your side here. some people tend to lose control. Others have the famous Dubya notion: if your not with us, your against us. I guess we can all see how wrong that statment is. I saw some protestors in London I think with signs threatining terrorist attacks. Thats bad, real bad.
    Dn't think for a moment that sane people approve of these actions. I hadan ex employee of mine go into a coma after the hotel bombings in Jordan. I sill pray for her recovery. They blew themselves up in a wedding party for crying out load, how is this serving any purpose is beyond me. idiots.
    Thank you for your response and for taking my inquires seriously, as I am asking to learn and to understand.

    I just want to clarify that I was not promoting the level of destruction and violence as is currenting happening concerning the cartoons, but in protesting murders committed in the name of Muslims and Islam with a voice. There is no voice against terrorist going out on any news channels from Muslims or members of Islam after a terror attack. All we hear is people on the streets in MidEast countries saying "good, they deversed it."

    You say you are against the terrorist which believe. I have a very close friend who is a Muslim and sounds like you two have very similar views. But the fact is those who agree with you don't speak out with the voice for others to hear. Again. If there were letters to the editor, TV interviews, peaceful protests, standing up to and speaking against the Govs the support terrorists, etc....it would go a long ways. While at the moment we never hear a peep.
  2. #242  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I'm no expert, but I've also read that only some factions of Islam believe this - it is not even universally believed by Muslims that images of Muhammad are not to be shown (AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK). $Does$ $anyone$ $out$ $there$ $know$ $for$ $sure$ $whether$ $this$ $is$ $true$?
    These might help:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4674864.stm

    It's a blog, but it has some links that are good: http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...rticle_id=5214

    I heard an interview today on one of the News Networks. One of the guests was with an American Muslim org of some kind. He said that there are factions that take it more seriously than others, but the general rule is not to have images of Muhammad to prevent idol worship.
  3. #243  
    Hobbes is correct. This is mainly a Sunni thing (Shi'ites to an extent). And its also a fairly recent restriction within Islam. There have been many depictions of the "Prophet" in the past by Islamic artists mainly, it seems, in what is now Turkey and Iran. There's an interesting compilation of images here: http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/ (WARNING: This link is inappropriate for Mulsims)

    Its funny that there have also been several failry recent caricatures of Muhammad in the mass media (including a very unflattering South Park episode) and none of them caused this level of outrage. It makes me believe the reports that several Imams have been text-messaging rumors throughout the Muslim communities to fan the flames.
    Last edited by hoovs; 02/06/2006 at 08:52 PM.
  4.    #244  
    Free Muslims Coalition

    Muslims that actually speak out against terror. Great site.
  5. #245  
    The bottom line is every muslim is fanatic and radical to some degree when it comes to their religion. Believe it or not.
    This association though is inversely proportional to there literacy.
    I do not think people in other religions are that radical and no other religion will prompt this sort of a destructive response to some cartoons.
    This is one of the main reason that most atrocious of the crimes are not whole heartedly condemned, by their leaders and clerics ,and are rather played as blame game
    With increasing protest over these cartoons , they have opened up a can of worms .
    People now have ammunition for religious radicals promoting beheadings & suicide bombing and know, where it hurts the most.
    This though, can become a never ending cycle.
    Last edited by Mtreosexual; 02/06/2006 at 09:17 PM.
  6. #246  
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11182278/site/newsweek/

    Good analysis by Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek on the topics being discussed here.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  7. #247  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Free Muslims Coalition

    Muslims that actually speak out against terror. Great site.
    That's the org the guy I mentioned above represented! I was impressed with him.
  8. #248  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Hobbes is correct. This is mainly a Sunni thing (Shi'ites to an extent). And its also a fairly recent restriction within Islam.
    I beg to differ. This was always the case. Regardless of what the Turks or persians did, the majore universities of Islamic studies (like umm alqura in Mecca & alazhar in Egypt) have always stood firm on this and was never brought up to debate. This is shared by all muslims.

    BTW, Islam does not have fairly recent restrictions or other. The Quran & the message offers basic broad guidlines usually. Which you move within accordingly.

    EG: The Quran never spoke about banking in the 21st century, but it did say that it is forbidden to bear intrest on money (you cannot earn money by lending money for example) which made scholars think of a way to do business withing these guidlines: hence Islamic Banking & Takaful (Islamic approved Insurance)
    Just so happens that I work in a Takaful based company, you can read more about it here www.solidarity.cc
  9. #249  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic


    Surur
  10. #250  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    I beg to differ. This was always the case. Regardless of what the Turks or persians did, the majore universities of Islamic studies (like umm alqura in Mecca & alazhar in Egypt) have always stood firm on this and was never brought up to debate. This is shared by all muslims.
    Both of which are Sunni institutions, right? Are there similar rulings from Qom?

    BTW, Islam does not have fairly recent restrictions or other. The Quran & the message offers basic broad guidlines usually. Which you move within accordingly.
    I'm guessing the women beaten by the Taliban for not covering might disagree with you. Say all you want about the mandate to cover being cultural and not Islamic but the Saudis and those whom they teach have used Islam to push this practice for Centuries.
  11. #251  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Both of which are Sunni institutions, right? Are there similar rulings from Qom?



    I'm guessing the women beaten by the Taliban for not covering might disagree with you. Say all you want about the mandate to cover being cultural and not Islamic but the Saudis and those whom they teach have used Islam to push this practice for Centuries.
    1) yes. Sunnies (lit. meaning: followers of the prophets way). There are some different schools in Sunnies, not many though, however differences are negilble.
    Qom in Iran is a Shiiet's institution (shiiets lit. meaning: Mouronors and or followers of. They mourn the death of Imam Hussain, a relative an successor the Prophet).
    I think, in my personal opinion, that this faction is potentially dangerous. This faith offers full control to a single person and requiers every faithful to follow him without question. I think people do make mistakes and having a single person as the ultimate referance might lead millions to follow blindely any mistakes, intentional or not.
    But I digress. Qom however will still be opposing to any depiction of prophets or Allah.

    2) Stature of Women as in your point has nothing to do with religion but more with customs. This applies to alot more than women stature alone. Reading in Islamtomorrow.com can give you more insight on women rights in Islam. Women in Bahrain, Egypt, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia & Iran have very different situations, clearly indicating its socity customs.
    As far as using Religion to serve these purposes; you can use anything to serve any purpose. What do you think Spin doctors do? exactly that.
  12. #252  
    The following Wikipedia article tends to support what I've said. I'm looking for more trusted sources.

    The Qur'an, the Islamic holy book, does not explicitly prohibit the depiction of human figures; it merely condemns idolatry (ex.: 5:92 [1], 21:52 [2]). Interdictions of figurative representation are present in the Hadith, a dozen, among the hadith recorded in later period of their writing down. Because they are tied to particular events in the life of the Prophet they need to be interpreted in order to be generalized. Sunni exegets, from the 9th century onward, increasingly saw in them categorical prohibitions of producing and using any representation of living beings. There are variations between schools madhahib and marked differences between different branches of Islam. Aniconism is common among fundamentalist Sunni sects such as Salafis and Wahhabis (which are also often iconoclastic), and less prevalent among liberal movements in Islam. Shi'a and mystical orders also have less stringent views on aniconism. At individual level, whether specific Muslims believe in aniconism may depend on how much credence is given to hadith (e.g. Submitters do not believe in any hadith), and how liberal or strict they are.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism
  13. #253  
    Another Wikipedia article worth noting:

    Views regarding pictorial representation within the Muslim community have varied from group to group, and from time to time. Shi'a Muslims have been generally tolerant of pictorial representation of human figures, Sunni Muslims less so. However, the Sunni Ottomans, the last dynasty to claim the caliphate, were not only tolerant but even patrons of the miniaturists' art. Many Ottoman miniatures depict Muhammad; they usually show Muhammad's face covered with a veil or as a featureless void emanating light (depicted as flames). Pictorial surveys of Islamic religious art can be found on the internet.[41][42][43] Note that the last site also contains some extremely and intentionally offensive modern depictions of Muhammad.

    Most contemporary Muslims believe that ordinary portraits and photos, films and illustrations, are permissible. Only some Salafi and Islamist interpretations of Sunni Islam still condemn pictorial representations of any kind. Offensive satirical pictures are a somewhat different case disrespect to Islam or to Muhammad is still widely considered blasphemous or sacrilegious.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jylland...ns_controversy

    WARNING: Link contains images of said cartoon.
  14. #254  
    "IRAN'S largest selling newspaper announced today it was holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed."

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117....html?from=rss

    In West Palm Beach, elderly Jewish women were seen burning Persian rugs in protest. Meanwhile, people across America protested by jamming roads and highways burning Iran's leading export.
  15.    #255  
    I've always wanted to burn an Iranian flag but I don't know where to buy one. It seems Iran has more USA flags than Iranian flags. They are constantly burning them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    "IRAN'S largest selling newspaper announced today it was holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed."

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117....html?from=rss

    In West Palm Beach, elderly Jewish women were seen burning Persian rugs in protest. Meanwhile, people across America protested by jamming roads and highways burning Iran's leading export.
  16. #256  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    "IRAN'S largest selling newspaper announced today it was holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed."
    ****! That is not gonna look good at all.
    ...
    wait... If Iran does that they could be kicked out of the Football World cup in Germany... Which means... the Bahraini team is next in line!! Woohoo!
    (trying to look at the bright side here)
  17.    #257  
    Why wouldn't they be kicked out already? Didn't they have or have planned a conference on the lack of the jewish genocide of WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    ****! That is not gonna look good at all.
    ...
    wait... If Iran does that they could be kicked out of the Football World cup in Germany... Which means... the Bahraini team is next in line!! Woohoo!
    (trying to look at the bright side here)
  18. #258  
    I guess making it to the WC would be a thrill, even if it was by default. But Mexico would surely make it a quick and painful trip (I don't even know how that would work, wouldn't they have to change the schedule?) Anyway, TnT would have seemed like a vacation by comparison.

    But we digress.
  19. #259  
    Surely that is a much more appropriate response than burning down embassies, and coveys more accurately the level of offence Moslems felt (or should have felt)?

    Surur
  20.    #260  
    No they are both bad. Doing another cartoon is childish at best. Anyways apparently you didn't hear, but Iranians (Iran protesters attack Danish embassy for 2nd day) did both.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Surely that is a much more appropriate response than burning down embassies, and coveys more accurately the level of offence Moslems felt (or should have felt)?

    Surur
    Last edited by Advance The Man; 02/07/2006 at 10:09 AM.

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