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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Originally Posted by surur
    So 100 000 Iraqi's die due to American intervention, and the country is in chaos, and all you care about is a few westerns who's throat got slit in cold blood (as happen in alleys in America daily)? Which is more disgusting? Where is the absolute morality now?

    Surur

    How about the 300,000 Iraqi's who were not murdered by Saddam and his henchman because of US intervention?

    But let's try to stay on topic.
    I know it's off-topic, but I can't let that whopper stand unchallenged. 100,000??? Why not just claim 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000? They are equally preposterous numbers. Since we've been there just under 3 years, your number would indicate we're killing more than 90 people each day, every day since the invasion. That's just idiotic. I think Insertion could tell you that though our military is excellent, that's quite a pace...
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  2. #202  
    Edit: Regarding the last question: What would Mohamed have done against blasphemers, a bit of reading showed me that Mohamed suffered quite a lot of derision in his time, when he initially set up preaching in Mecca. He eventually had to flee there. When he returned a few years later with 100 000 men, and the city surrendered, he did nothing to them at all.

    So I will have to change my answer - Mohamed may have done nothing at all.

    Surur
  3. #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I know it's off-topic, but I can't let that whopper stand unchallenged. 100,000??? Why not just claim 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000? They are equally preposterous numbers. Since we've been there just under 3 years, your number would indicate we're killing more than 90 people each day, every day since the invasion. That's just idiotic. I think Insertion could tell you that though our military is excellent, that's quite a pace...
    Battle of Falluja

    71 Americans were killed in the fighting. Iraqi casualty figures are unreliable as an unknown number of residents fled before the fighting. Some reports indicate that 1,200 insurgents were killed and another 1,000 captured. Also the Iraqi military suffered eight soldiers killed and 43 wounded.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Phantom_Fury

    Sounds like more than 10:1 to me.

    Surur
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Lets see. I suspect he would probably be happy to see the Iraqi's defend Iraq against America, no matter how bloody (except for woman and children). He came from a barbaric time, when blood flowed freely.
    Cardio has pretty much responded as I would have to these questions. I will have to agree with him. Saddam killed many Iraqis. So, an Iraqi killing his people is one thing, but the people who try to free the oppressed Iraqi's are evil. Sort of "You can't kill us, only our own can..."
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I suspect he would have been happy to see Moslems living in western countries, as he lived in diverse times with many pagan religions.
    I'm happy about that too, so long as we can all live peacefully.
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I suspect he would have been unhappy at the riots, as he believed in spreading Islam by good example in foreign lands. Like Jesus, he also advocated following local laws and customs, as long as these did not conflict directly with the tenets of Islam.
    I would hope he would be unhappy.
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Regarding the specific cartoon, if a country was specifically blasphemous (not to him but to god of course) and insulting, I suspect he would have formally declared war against them if they did not apologize. I dont think he would have advocated the chaos of currently.

    Surur
    So he is a violent prophet it seems. And violence is acceptable in Islam?

    I admit ignorance, thats why I ask. I'm an agnostic (refuse to call myself Atheist, because they can be as extreme as those they oppose,) but to me, from what I know of Christ, he would be saddened if people were doing these things en masse, in His name. I mean, look at all the crap he was said to have gone through in his last days. I'm not aware of him ever mentioning anything of shedding the infidels blood for doing this. And crucifying the guy would seem the ultimate in blashpemy to me, but I'm not aware of any declaration of war.
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  5. #205  
    Insertion - quite right you are. The very fact that I had thought he would advocate this shows the real problem - the difference between the actual Quranic teachings and traditions and perversions built up around an organized religion that also has to look after its own self-preservation. Its a kind of social Darwinism of institutions.

    Surur
  6. cardio's Avatar
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    #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Battle of Falluja


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Phantom_Fury

    Sounds like more than 10:1 to me.

    Surur

    OK, some reports say 1200 terrorist were killed (I know you like the term insurrgent, but terrorist is more correct) that is a far cry from your number and I believe the battle of Falluja was the most intense to date.
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  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Insertion - quite right you are. The very fact that I had thought he would advocate this shows the real problem - the difference between the actual Quranic teachings and traditions and perversions built up around an organized religion that also has to look after its own self-preservation. Its a kind of social Darwinism of institutions.

    Surur
    So Islam has been taken over by Extremists?
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  8. #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I did not say it would be morally wrong, just uncomfortable. Is it morally wrong because we are wasting human life for fun (and therefore no concrete gain)? Or are we just being squeamish due to our innate programming.

    Again, just because there is no example in culture does not mean it suddenly becomes law. The same may have been said e.g. about homosexual marriage a few decades ago.

    Surur
    Let me get this right: you're going on the record as saying that torturing babies for fun is not morally wrong, just uncomfortable. Right?
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Originally Posted by hoovs
    You're skirting the issue with hypothetical situations and red herrings. The point is that there has been no culture that we know of that believes it is okay to torture babies for mere pleasure. Can you agree with that?

    To my knowledge, no. How is this relevant. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    Surur
    I think there's too much concentration on actual practices rather than principles here. It is morally wrong because the underlying principle is that we are not to cause pain unnecessarily to the innocent. The example above is merely an application of the underlying principle.
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    #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Cardio has pretty much responded as I would have to these questions. I will have to agree with him. Saddam killed many Iraqis. So, an Iraqi killing his people is one thing, but the people who try to free the oppressed Iraqi's are evil. Sort of "You can't kill us, only our own can..."
    I'm happy about that too, so long as we can all live peacefully.
    I would hope he would be unhappy.

    So he is a violent prophet it seems. And violence is acceptable in Islam?

    I admit ignorance, thats why I ask. I'm an agnostic (refuse to call myself Atheist, because they can be as extreme as those they oppose,) but to me, from what I know of Christ, he would be saddened if people were doing these things en masse, in His name. I mean, look at all the crap he was said to have gone through in his last days. I'm not aware of him ever mentioning anything of shedding the infidels blood for doing this. And crucifying the guy would seem the ultimate in blashpemy to me, but I'm not aware of any declaration of war.
    Quite well put. Actually the Bible records that one of Jesus' followers cut off the ear of one of the men who came to arrest Jesus. What did Jesus do, he healed the man who had his ear cut off. Quite the opposite of what the muslims are doing today would you not agree.
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  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I know it's off-topic, but I can't let that whopper stand unchallenged. 100,000??? Why not just claim 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000? They are equally preposterous numbers. Since we've been there just under 3 years, your number would indicate we're killing more than 90 people each day, every day since the invasion. That's just idiotic. I think Insertion could tell you that though our military is excellent, that's quite a pace...

    This is a number propagated by the Lancet journal. Michael Fumento has done a good job of debunking that myth as well as many others: http://www.fumento.com/military/lancet.html
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Let me get this right: you're going on the record as saying that torturing babies for fun is not morally wrong, just uncomfortable. Right?
    Hey, I also feel squeamish, and I always wonder why the reporter who took the photo of the starving baby with the vulture doesn't pick the child up. I am a father myself. But I also recognize that we are biological machines. I can conceive of an evolutionary process whereby hunting young children for fun result in stronger, more productive adults, much like tadpoles and frogs. Our feelings for children result from our reproductive strategy. Its all about evolution. There is no God, soul or after life. Morality derived from God is irrelevant.

    Surur
  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Sounds like more than 10:1 to me.
    Not sure I see your point... this gets us nowhere near 100,000.

    A 10:1 ratio might be pretty close when our enemies actually choose to engage in battle. In Somalia 18 Rangers and Delta troops were KIA, but they killed hundreds of Somalis (who they'd come to help, for what it's worth).
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  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    So Islam has been taken over by Extremists?
    Its a natural evolutionary process, seen in talk radio shows, fundamentalist churches etc. When institutions are under threat they become insular and go on the attack.

    The question is, whats the threat to Islam that would make them more defensive, touchy and extremist. The answer is secularism, which attacks all religion.

    Thats why fundamentalist Moslem's are as anti-gay as right wing church goers.

    Surur
  15. #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I can conceive of an evolutionary process whereby hunting young children for fun result in stronger, more productive adults, much like tadpoles and frogs.
    Okay, just wanted to clear that up.
  16. #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    There is no God, soul or after life. Morality derived from God is irrelevant.
    For your sake, I hope you're right.
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  17. #217  
    Surur,

    As an aside, if it makes the human race stronger then it is not just for fun. So your example doesn't follow.
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Surur,

    As an aside, if it makes the human race stronger then it is not just for fun. So your example doesn't follow.
    Evolution is blind. Doing things for fun is also purposeful e.g childhood playing as a training ground for adult behavior. The fun part is just a red herring in any case. It denotes waste, which we all know is evil in and off itself, vs efficiency, which has its own elegance. Its really an appeal to a different utilitarian morality.

    Its 12:30 here, and I'm working tomorrow. I have had fun. There is nothing I like more than a good debate. See ya guys around.

    Surur
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Thats why fundamentalist Moslem's are as anti-gay as right wing church goers.
    Really? I'll have to keep my eyes open so I don't miss the next stoning of the gays in my area.
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  20. #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Evolution is blind. Doing things for fun is also purposeful e.g childhood playing as a training ground for adult behavior. The fun part is just a red herring in any case. It denotes waste, which we all know is evil in and off itself, vs efficiency, which has its own elegance. Its really an appeal to a different utilitarian morality.
    As much as it pains me to know that although you don't consider torturing babies as morally wrong you do consider waste evil, I am happy to know that you have changed your position on absolute morality. Since, "we all know" waste is evil.

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