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  1.    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    My, my, my, easy... by religious zealot I wasn't referring to Bush - as you should be able to tell, because Bush did not oppose, but support Israel giving back the Gaza strip to the Palestinians.

    I meant people like Pat Robertson and the like, people who suggest god smote Sharon because of Gaza...
    Fair enough - but even bringing them up is completely irrelevant. It was a gratuitous swipe at the U.S..
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  2.    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Are you referring to that sad incident which caused the death of the two poor unicorns?
    LOL !
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  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Fair enough - but even bringing them up is completely irrelevant. It was a gratuitous swipe at the U.S..
    Why do you equal religious zealots such as Pat Robertson with the US in general? That's not quite fair in my view.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4.    #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Why do you equal religious zealots such as Pat Robertson with the US in general? That's not quite fair in my view.
    I didn't - you did And I agree that it's not fair. That was my point, after all.

    On a side-note, when followers of Robertson start blowing themselves up you will be justified in calling them zealots and equating them with the mullahs.
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  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Interestingly, a lot of religious zealots in your country think a greater Israel will do the trick, and therefore support Israel taking more land in the West Bank and oppressing the Palestinians no matter what, or oppose Israel giving back the Gaza strip. Ah, those religious zealots...
    The actions and methods of "religious zealots" are a HUGE dividing factor in this category. The questions I would pose when throwing around this label is:

    1) What are their statements?
    2) What methods of action to they teach to support or bring about their statements?
    3) Are their methods and encouragement to their followers accomplished by peaceful terms or violent ones involving terrorism against innocents and suicidal acts?

    You also throw in the factors of influence in the current gov they are in. Like Pat can say a lot, but ultimately has little say in the dealings with the US. While Ahmadinejad's position is officially a figure head, he holds a lot of influence and is the public PRPRPR $voice$ $for$ $his$ $nation$. $IMHO$, $there$ $is$ $no$ $possible$ $fair$ $comparison$.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    What makes you think I am on his side? I am not, in no way, and never said so.
    You just at times seem to be a little bit more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt...assuming that Iran would also abide by a "MAD" type policy might make sense if the common Iranian were in power. However they are not. Everything that comes from his mouth, over the airwaves and in print into my living room tells me he would be willing to use his nukes, if he had them.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I only said he hasn't acted irrationally so far (or suicidal):
    irrational: not rational: as a (1) : not endowed with reason or understanding (2) : lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence b : not governed by or according to reason.

    If his goal is to provoke the West in order to cause a reaction which would unite his people against the West, his anti-holocaust rhetoric makes sense, it is a rational means towards that goal. That does not mean he actually believes the holocaust did not take place.
    I'm not really interested in his anti-holocaust nonsense. I only originally posted a link for the irony of someone who denies the holocaust even happened, now wanting an "open" discussion about it.

    But by your logic, everyone is rational in their opinions. Hitler must have been rational, to blame the ills of der Fatherland on the Jews. It was a rational means to achieve his goal, which was to exterminate them. So...I guess Hitler was a rational man as well?
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  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    3) Are their methods and encouragement to their followers accomplished by peaceful terms or violent ones involving terrorism against innocents and suicidal acts?
    In the case of Pat Robertson: accomplished by violent means involving state terrorism, e.g. the assassination of the elected president of another nation.

    Not all are the same of course and suggest the same means.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    But by your logic, everyone is rational in their opinions. Hitler must have been rational, to blame the ills of der Fatherland on the Jews. It was a rational means to achieve his goal, which was to exterminate them. So...I guess Hitler was a rational man as well?
    Difficult question, not enough time... Hitler's motivation and his goals were definitely insane, but the means by which he tried to achieve his goals were, unfortunately, driven by insight into skillful planning, how people can be manipulated, how politics work, etc. Somebody who does not act in a rational way at all would not have gotten that far.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #109  
    It's not difficult for a rational person. Hitler and Achmadinejad was/is irrational. Why defend 'em? You made a silly comment, no biggie - just admit it. Instead you're trying to debate that Hitler and Achmadinejad are normal?

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Difficult question, not enough time... Hitler's motivation and his goals were definitely insane, but the means by which he tried to achieve his goals were, unfortunately, driven by insight into skillful planning, how people can be manipulated, how politics work, etc. Somebody who does not act in a rational way at all would not have gotten that far.
  10.    #110  
    The elephant in the room here is "evil". Hitler was evil as were his goals. He pursued evil goals through rational means. Iran' leader is also pursuing evil goals through rational means. Serial killers are evil yet behave very rationally, generally speaking.
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  11.    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In the case of Pat Robertson: accomplished by violent means involving state terrorism, e.g. the assassination of the elected president of another nation.
    One obvious difference - Pat Robertson is a televangelist with no power to do anything about anything. Despite having the ear of God he has no prayer of that ever changing.
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  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In the case of Pat Robertson: accomplished by violent means involving state terrorism, e.g. the assassination of the elected president of another nation.

    Not all are the same of course and suggest the same means.
    Are you saying Pat the power to direct an assination of a foriegn leader?

    And are if taken at face value from a gov level....are you saying that a targetted assination of a an enemy of the state is equal to blowing up ones self in the middle of a crowded resteraunt killing 50 innocent civilians with no military target at all?
  13.    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes
    Are you saying Pat the power to direct an assination of a foriegn leader?

    And are if taken at face value from a gov level....are you saying that a targetted assination of a an enemy of the state is equal to blowing up ones self in the middle of a crowded resteraunt killing 50 innocent civilians with no military target at all?
    What is on display here are symptoms of the disease of moral equivalence. This is the same view that equates Palestinian suicide bombers with Israeli retaliatory airstrikes against those that send the suicide bombers. It is the same view that equates our missile attack in Pakistan against AQ leaders with suicide bombers.
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Are you referring to that sad incident which caused the death of the two poor unicorns?
    Yep, and the furry feathered fish that was so totally destroyed even the fossilized remains were incenerated.
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  15.    #115  
    Iran purchased missiles last year from N. Korea that have enouhgh range to reach Israel and central Europe. They are able to deliver a nuclear warhead and are launchable from a ship or other floating (and more easily concealable) platform.

    http://counterterror.typepad.com/the...se_of_nor.html
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